Censorship

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Mistercomputerman, here is what this site is about -

"Welcome to CSR, a website for Sea Ray owners to enthusiastically discuss all aspects of Sea Ray ownership. Whether you are looking for your first Sea Ray, or have owned one for years, you are sure to feel “at home” on CSR."

If at any point we misled you I'm sorry. The only things that get censored are things like the post above where some profanity was used that will get edited by me when I'm done with this as some people like for their younger family members to use this site. If you are not OK with us making the content here a little more family friendly then I'm sorry again.

In regards to you wanting us to delete a 10 word sentence by wingless, however we should leave up entire threads devoted to making fun of wingless, well I don't quite understand that logic. Four Suns has thrown jab after jab at wingless, most we let go, none as far as I remember have been censored. And Wingless has thrown many back. I think they need each other. Closing a thread is not censorship, changing a thread is. This forum has a great feature that allows you to ignore users. You can easily ignore Wingless, then you won't even know he exists. Anybody who is not ignoring him either likes him, or likes the drama that surrounds him. I wish I could ignore him but I can't. He sends me PM's every freaking week complaining about how slow this site is. Its not our job as moderators to decide who is and who is not popular. Wingless is obviously not popular, and I don't understand why he sticks around here, but thats not for me to decide. He's welcome, just like every other Sea Ray Owner. If he breaks the rules then we'll boot him. He would be the first to get booted in that case (thats how much we censor).

Just use the ignore feature, and he won't even exist. Four Suns should use the ignore feature too, but that obviously would not be as fun.

Every site has drama queens, including ours. Its the nature of the internet. There are some people, like Frank W, that won't get anywhere near drama. On the other boating sites I'm on I won't get anywhere near drama. Whats the point? Here I have to as the drama queens demand it.

So hopefully that answers your question.


Dear CSR Admin

I do not feel misled by anything or anyone on the web site. I am a reasonably intelligent fellow and am pretty astute at quickly discerning fiction from reality.

Also, I am not asking you to delete any words or posts. I am just wondering out loud if closing a post while allowing another to continue constitutes censorship. If I did not get an opportunity to speak because of a management decison, is that censorship or management? I am trying to make a decision on whether I want to continue to hang out in your group or whether it is time to find a group without a Village Idiot.

Now, while I am in the computer business, I will confess to never having been a part of any forum on anything but computers and those forums appear to operate in a different manner than this one.

I am sorry to hear that he is PM'ing you about your site speed. Personally, given that it is a free site to end users, I think that its performance is quite acceptable. Maybe the issue is on his side.

Additionally, I was not asking you to determine who is and is not popular. It does appear to me that Four Suns tried to create a poll to make that determination, but, it was closed. And that poll is what led to my original post. Since I did not have an opportunity to vote, I am trying to determine if that consitutes censorship.

I was unaware of the "ignore" feature of the forum. I will give that a shot and see if that reduces my level of annoyance with the guy. I was thinking this was a pretty good place until he showed up. Now I just shake my head and some of the "ideas/solutions" that appear in his posts.

I appreciate your candor and quick response.
 
I remember the word censorship being mentioned right before SRO closed...like Turtle it is funny how the word gets brought up about once a year when a someone causes trouble.

Mistercomputerman, I am not sure how long you have been a member of CSR, like Turtle mentioned the user mentioned is not the first troll to come along to do exactly what it seems he is doing to you. Causing trouble with the group where members decide to no longer be a part of the board by causing splits. The site is free and you have every right to come or go as you see fit. The sad part is that if Jim did decide to kick Wingless off the board people on the other side would then start arguing censorship as well. As sad as it is there is not a win when these situations come up....we just have to try and control it and wait for it to end. I can say that it always ends after the people envolved get tired of each other

As has been said before when a member gets mad for the way that we moderate the board. We do the best that we can to be fair, sometimes we are wrong and sometimes we are right. That said throwing words like censorship is pretty strong terms for closing a thread down.

Wesley
 
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I remember the word censorship being mentioned right before SRO closed...like Turtle it is funny how the word gets brought up about once a year when a someone causes trouble.

Mistercomputerman, I am not sure how long you have been a member of CSR, like Turtle mentioned the user mentioned is not the first troll to come along to do exactly what it seems he is doing to you. Causing trouble with the group where members decide to no longer be a part of the board by causing splits. The site is free and you have every right to come or go as you see fit.

As has been said before when a member gets mad for the way that we moderate the board. We do the best that we can to be fair, sometimes we are wrong and sometimes we are right. That said throwing words like censorship is pretty strong terms for closing a thread down.

Wesley


Hi First Born

Thanks for your perspective. As I mentioned, the only forums that I have been a part of do not have these issues, so it may be that MY inexperience in a public forum of this nature is causing MY annoyance with the guy. Some of us have a low tolerance for bullcrap and some of us have an even lower tolerance for downright wrong advice. I joined your group in January of 2008, so I must have missed some of the issues of this nature with previous members.

If the wingless types are a "normal" part of a forum of this nature, then I guess I will have to put up with him or find a new place to hang my hat.

For the record, he took a couple of shots at me on his bottom paint thread and I was polite and ignored his smart comments.

As far as the word censorship goes, I am struggling with the closing of the Four Suns survey. Since I did not have the opportunity to vote in that survey, I have started this thread. I can appreciate the difficulty of moderating a forum where some of the members are at odds with other members, but, I am not convinced that closing the thread was the correct thing to do. If wingless wanted to post a survey about Four Suns, or you for that matter, and you closed those threads before I got a chance to vote, I think I would be asking the same question. And I don't think I would have even started THIS thread if I had gotten the opportunity to be heard.

I would not consider this to be questioning you, the Admin or any other moderators; I am trying to determine how allowing this guy to be disruptive is helpful and if his behavior is allowed to continue, whether I want to continue to be a part of this group.

I appreciate your response.
 
I could of sworn I just saw a post and it was just deleted... too many Mountain Dews this evening I guess....
 
Your Mountain Dews aren't making you see things. There was a post in here and it has disappeared. Maybe the software?
 
Ok, My 2 cents worth. I've been on here for a short spell and found this forum very usefull. It opened my eyes to a huge assortment of issues that I never even gave a secont thought. This end of boating is new to me since the previous boat was Dad's 18 ft Bowrider. Now as far as censorship goes, I have no idea what would cause a member to get kicked off. It was me who posted a poll about the possibility of Wingless being Four Suns alter ego, but It was a serious question. Some who responded mentioned Wingless's dangerous advice. Now this is somthing that I haven't seen yet, but sure I will. It seemed possible that Gary could have been messing with us. How would I know. Also others have mentioned the possibility. I posted it in the Holding Tank since I thought it would be simply Humourous at best. It got locked. Oh well. As far as Four Suns, He seems like a knowledgeable guy and a bit of a smart a$$ with a good healthy sence of humor. With that said He does take the time to answer questions to people even if they have no need for the answer except for the knowledge. Example, I Have no need to understand the cooling system in a boat with twin Cummins. I asked a question and it was answered.
Now I have been attacked here as well and did notice it died a quick death.
From post 12 on.
http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16326
Now I'm a big boy with big shoulders. I can handle it.
As far as I'm concerned Wingless can be entertaining at best. Most people realize he is what he is and don't follow his ideas and advice.
Not for nothing I've been given conflicting advice here as a started here but soon realized that I need to make my desisions. Guess as time went on folks realized I'm not some fly by nighter with the tools and projects. Let the folks on the forum get me factual information and ideas. I make the call.
Bottom line. You can tell after just a short time who to listen to and who to tune out and just kick back and laugh.
 
Read it quick, 'cause STIHLBOLTS deletes all my posts

For the record, he took a couple of shots at me on his bottom paint thread and I was polite and ignored his smart comments.
Is this where I was rude to you?


Or was this the rude conduct?

Or this?

I'm not trying to be acute, but clearly I'm obtuse and I don't see what shots were directed across your bow.
 
Jim's response is very well said. Think about it, if he starts banning people then everyone will complain about that being censorship. It's a no-win situation.

Being a nuisance takes a lot of effort and those people will eventually get tired and move on. You will expedite this if you stop feeding the trolls. They will get hungry and look for food elsewhere.

I suggest using the ignore feature as it has made life here so much better for me.

.
 
Hi First Born

Thanks for your perspective. As I mentioned, the only forums that I have been a part of do not have these issues

Then I want to join your forums...whether or not they relate to anything I have any interest. :wink:

I am relatively new, tried to read archives to catch up and certainly could have missed a few. I am a regular on BMW, lawyer, and technology forums...sites where the members (as here) share some traits of intelligence, ego, experience and various levels of resources and education. I respectfully submit that comparatively, the flames on this site would more accurately be compared to handwarmers.
 
What happened to common sense?
This crap reminds me of Tee ball for the kids. Everyone gets to play no matter how bad they suck at the game.
Can "we" not get rid of someone whom is making a mockery of this club we all have grown to enjoy?
Can we not ban a someone whom is disrupting the normal smooth operation of this web site WITHOUT the fear Jim might start banning people at will, just because?
I don't get that we can't use common sense.
I would expect if I were being a jerk, and so many were calling for my dismissal, I would either change my ways or expect to be band. (actually already happened, Wes straightened me out) Sometimes when someone is challenging the rules they are actually testing the boundaries.
I think everyone knows where I stand. Mike
 
Are "we" forgetting that this is Jim's site and he can do whatever he wants to do with it. His expense, his equipment, his volunteers to monitor and police (well to some degree at least) the site. Don't like it...go elsewhere or just deal with it.

Just my $.02 but what the hell....
 
Let's review. Wingless shows up with his many questionable (in some peoples opinions) mods, and begins offering advice (like most here). He is immediately met with resistance by the "experts", questioning safety etc.....blah blah blah. Nothing new there. The resistance turns into mockery by the arrogant one whom all worship, and suddenly everyone is in agreement. Nothing new there either. The mockery escalates to pictorial ridicule and Wingless begins to counter AFTER making posts asking for the CSR rules to be administered equally. Which in his mind he believes was not the case. By this time this four suns character has the crowd whipped into a frenzy and all of a sudden guys that haven't posted in months are shreeking in mock horror. How could this be? How could the moderators have let this trouble maker in?? And, more importantly, what were they going to do to keep our community sterile???
The answer? Nothing. And it's the right answer. When did this place become a forum for experts only? And whom are the arbitors of right and wrong?. Anyone here a certified Mercruiser/Cummins/Catapillar technician? Didn't think so. So why the outrage when someone makes a questionable post? And don't give me any of that crap about "oh we're trying to make sure no one gets hurt and that everyone is safe...blah blah blah." Bullsh!t. No one here is responsible for anyone elses safety so save it. You have a recommendation? post it. We're supposedly all grown ups here, we'll decide for ourselves if the recommendation is an intelligent one.
 
Let's review. Wingless shows up with his many questionable (in some peoples opinions) mods, and begins offering advice (like most here). He is immediately met with resistance by the "experts", questioning safety etc.

[Deleted a whole lot of] Bullsh!t. No one here is responsible for anyone elses safety so save it. You have a recommendation? post it. We're supposedly all grown ups here, we'll decide for ourselves if the recommendation is an intelligent one.

This brings up a good point. Let's make the forum a darwinian intelligence test. We can mix up some good suggestions and some bad ones in each thread. To increase the fun factor, no suggestions will be provided to indicate which recommendations are safer than the others. Then we let everyone choose which suggestions they want so implement.

Or perhaps a better idea is setup two forums. This one can remain an "anything goes forum" and a new one where bad recommendations are deleted and fools exiled.
 
Or perhaps a better idea is setup two forums. This one can remain an "anything goes forum" and a new one where bad recommendations are deleted and fools[like myself] exiled.

Excellent idea fc3. Here's a better one. Let's just put you in charge of all things CSR. This way you wouldn't have to tolerate all these imperfect ideas and inquiries. Must be annoying having having to concern yourself with the health and well being of everyone here. Bet it gets your pocket protector all in a twist. "Anything goes" of course, pertains to ideas and recommendations not endorsed by yourself. What a tremendous weight to carry around on your narrow shoulders.
Speaking of exiling fools, didn't you threaten to leave here on several occassions? Funny how you keep turning up...we certainly appreciate you saving us from ourselves.
 
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A few points:

1) Censorship doesn't work. Once you start down the slope, you can't control the speed or the direction it will take you.

2) CSR is not really any different than other technical forums. I participate in a number of them and I find that there are always a few people who offer really stupid or dangerous advice in the hopes of receiving some personal attention.

3) A lot of people on the planet are not mentally well. Some of these people use forums for personal recognition and social networking. A "crazy" street person told me in San Francisco: "You have to act crazy or no one will pay attention to you".

4) CSR has a lot of great members who are extremely knowledgeable, who share that knowledge and don't need recognition or drama in their lives. They do it because they genuinely want to help other CSR members.

Jim's approach is the right one. You need to welcome everyone. I feel bad for Jim that he gets a ridiculous amounts of of PMs from the guy. I probably would have bounced him for that alone...

-John
 
This brings up a good point. Let's make the forum a darwinian intelligence test. We can mix up some good suggestions and some bad ones in each thread.

Or perhaps a better idea is setup two forums. This one can remain an "anything goes forum" and a new one where bad recommendations are deleted and fools exiled.
This is some of the "better" information provided by fc3.

Confusion w/ inductance, capacitance, reactance, AC and DC

Suggestion to use a fluorescent dimmer on an incandescent lamp

Statement that generators provide perfect power

It would be useful to relegate this foolish information to the anything goes section, per the suggestion.
 
I guess I'm always surprised that people take the time to save or catalog various threads.

I'm on a few boards and find if someone is ignored they end up getting tired of the cold shoulder and just go away all by themselves.

I'm just sayin...
 
Since Four Suns was indirectly referred to as a drama queen, we should pass the hat and buy him a Tiara to wear when he goes on stage.
 
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