Cat 3116 engine failure

H

HIRSCHHORN53

New Member
Jun 8, 2009
41
Long Island, NY
Boat Info
1997 Sundancer,
Engines
CAT 3116's TA 350 hp
The end of last weekend was a disaster for my SR. Having just spent a wonderful weekend at Shelter Island, I was heading home, all engines running perfectly, good temp etc, suddenly we heard a loud bang, then black smoke out the port stern end. We immediately shut down the engine. I limped into a close harbor where the boat sits. HOPenn the local Cat rep for our NY area just spent a full day on the boat and took the top plate off and fully examined the engine. As I am told, a valve broke, pieces went through the engine taking out four piston heads and continued on and took out the turbo. Bottom line, they need to remove the engine, and rebuild $$$$$.
My engines only have 780 hrs, always maintained perfectly. Cat did the maintenance service when required.

I questioned what might cause such a failure. I am told it's either improper maintenance or a defective valve.

I have been speaking with several knowledgeable mechanics the past few days, I am hearing that Cat has had many issues with the 3116's over the years. I will say up until now mine have been pretty reliable. However, to have such a catastrophic failure as this with such low hours for a diesel leads me to think there might be an underlying issue on these engines.

Just wondering if anyone has heard of our experienced valve failure on the 3116's. Would really like to get some background on this.

I guess we can forget about a new car for the foreseeable future.
 
Sorrey to hear this!! the thing I have heard about is cat had some "soft" castings on engines. I thought all or most had been reconciled under warrenty. My understanding is that searay is not warrenting this anymore. You need to pm fwebster as he is WAY more knopwledgable than I am about this. Good luck...Ric
 
I'm sorry to hear this Peter. Best of luck with the repair.

This was a very common failure. I know of at least 20, probably more, 3116's that ate valves around the 300 hour mark. I've never known bad valves to go as long as yours did.
 
First, I am sorry you are faced with an expensive repair.

To attempt to answer some of your questions, yes Caterpillar had some problems with valves supplied by TRW, their OEM vendor, from about late 1995 to about 1999. It seems that more 3126's than 3116's were affected. When the TRW valves failed, the valve dropped into a cylinder, which as you have discovered is almost a terminal event for the engine. If your block was not damaged, you are lucky. The valve failure always happened somewhere in the 125 to 150 hour time span, and yes, Caterpillar warrantied all the engines that were affected.

Since your engines have almost 800 hours on youe engines, it is almost certain that the TRW soft valves was not the cause of your problem. But it wouldn't matter if it were since Caterpillar stopped warranting the valve failure in about 2006 after having no claims for 2-3 years, they figured all those that were going to fail had already done so.

The maintenance aspect of the technician's comment is because the valves on the 3116 have a definite adjustment requirement and time interval. The initial one should have been at 250 hours, subsequent ones are at something like 1000 hours (I'm not sure, my service manual is on the boat and I'm not where it is). The reason the valve adjustment is so important on these engines is that the deck clearance of the pistons is pretty close and, as the valve seats wear, the valve clearance decreases which means the valves open further and stay open longer than they should.

Someone made a comment about soft blocks.........I don't believe your engines are affected and you would know it long before now by excessive oil consumption.

Sometimes mechanical things fail and unfortunately, you may have just not had luck with you on this one.
 
I am sorry to learn of this...especially since I am considering that power plant for my next boat. As as engineer I am like you, I want to know why it happened and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.

My thoughts move quickly to the repair. Is the core salvageable...or do you look at finding a total replacement engine? This is a huge and un-expected expense. Hopefully being able to share this experience with the forum will help you through it.

If you haven't already, you might consider joining the Marine Diesel forum....http://boatdiesel.com/index.cfm.
I joined it even though I don't own a diesel...just to know more to prepare for when I do. Lots of good info there.

Good luck and let us know how it progresses.
 
Man, that sucks...
I almost burned up one of my 3208's when a jacket hose clamp failed- fortunately the engine survived, but until I knew that I had already determined that it was best to get a CAT factory remanufactured short block with warranty. I'm assuming that the 3116's can't be sleeved, either...

When you're ready to repair/replace, be sure to consider that option.

If you don't already belong, join Boatdiesel.com- it's the best $25 you'll ever spend. Do a search there on "3116 valve failure"... a few threads on this issue, apparently it's a known problem with these engines, including valve pieces taking out the turbo...

Have you owned the boat since new?
 
Thank you for your message. Fwebster is already replying to this post. I love this site, getting lots of immediate feedback.
I don't think it's a soft block issue, at least I pray this is not involved. Will keep you posted on the site
 
It's interesting that the more research I do on this through the internet, the more I am hearing about valve issues on 3116's. I was told that this was in fact an issue and Cat was doing warranty work but stopped after 2006. Obviously there was a problem. My question is whether this can be covered. Very doubtful but will try. I am starting to get price quotes that are scaring the hell out of me. Will keep everyone posted as this proceeds
 
Firstly, I hear from everyone on this site, you are the go to person when it comes to diesels. Thank you for jumping in and giving me some of your experience.
I am hearing quite a bit now about this valve issue that Cat had with these engines. Why mine did not fail during the lower hours is beyond me but at least I got several years of usage before this. However it still doesn't make this issue any easier now that we are dead in the water.

On the servicing issue, I am a stickler for keeping this boat as perfect as possible. I do all my own commissioning and decommissioning so I know it is done correctly. I had HO Pen our Cat reps come in and do the 250 hr valve adjustment. They have done all the technical maintenance on these engines. The next big service is not until 1000 hrs as you mentioned. So from a service issue, I am certainly covered. Whether this helps me any or not, I don't know.

I'm now talking with a variety of different diesel repair firms trying to get a handle on the full extend and cost of this job. It is not pretty. I got a good suggestion from my own yard manager. He suggested I contact repair places in Rhode Island. Apparently, things are much slower there than here in the NY area. They may be more inclined to work a better deal for a winter project such as this and could save significant $'s. My big fear right now is that after having the engine pulled and fully checked that I could be told the engine is beyond repair. Getting a replacement 3116 may be more difficult and certainly not cheap. I won't even think of a full re-power project at this point.

I am taking my time and doing extensive research on what all my options are. The boat is finished for the season so no sense in rushing.
Will my boat be up and running for next year, this will be the question. It's hard for me to think this would be the end of my boating.
I will try to keep posts available as I proceed so others may use whatever knowledge or advice that may come out of this.
Just trying to keep a positive attitude and not break the bank.
 
Thanks for your concern as well. Everyone's concern is truly appreciated.
I am now reading about a variety of issues on the 3116's. I'm told that this was not one of Cat's better engines and caused them much heartache. I would say up till now, I was satisfied but certainly not now. I own this boat 12 years but my hours are low, only about 780 hrs. I certainly should not have such a failure at this point.
I hope to get find the true cause of this. So far, most things point to a faulty valve.
I won't know about the block itself until the engine is out and sitting a bench somewhere.

I used to be on boatdiesel.com but will rejoin just to gain more information. Whatever I can learn about this issue will help me in my decision making process on how to proceed.

I will definitely keep everyone posted in this forum to help other SR owners. I will certainly not be the only one with this type of problem, unfortunately.
 
What kind of money are they talking? Don't give up on the repower option. You can find good deals right now on engines that are shelved or mothballed. Like everything else in this economy you can pay alot less than you think.
 
Good luck and I certainly wish you the best of luck. Have you given any thought to having the other motor looked at? Possibly do a preventative 'head' job now. I don't know if that would help, but your surely may want to discuss it with the CAT Tech.
 
Just a quick update to all those following this situation. I am still waiting for two more quotes on the rebuild. It appears that we will most likely go with a short block build. Prices are more reasonable from the New England area. Hope to be able to come to some conclusion by end of next week. I'm also trying to determine if we will go ahead and put a reman head on the other engine as a preventative measure. The dollars just keep adding up.
Once I finalize, I will post what exactly will be done so others can be aware. I was down at our dock today. It was a magnificent day, sunny and about 72. It was hard to look at my slip with no boat!!!
 
Interesting thought to replace the heads on the other engine. I guess, the idea behind it is to spend a lot now, versus maybe a lot more down the road IF the other engine throws a valve and does a lot more damage...

In order for that to be a valid consideration, you would have to know that the cause of these valve failures on the 3116 is due to faulty valves (the valves themselves), in other words something along the lines of a bad alloy. Do you know that this is the case, versus some other possible causes- like a design issue?

I agree with Dom that it's a good question to ask...
 
There was no design issue with the engine or valves. It is my understanding that the hardness of the TRW valves supplied to Caterpillar was the reason the valves failed. ON those t hat failed, the keepers pulled out of the valve stems allowing the valve to drop into the cylinder. To determine if this were the cause, as opposed to a random part failure, one would need to take the valve that failed to a metalurgical lab and have the hardness tested then compare the result to the manufacturer's standard for hardness. To determine it the valves in the other head were soft would mean removing it, disassembling the good valves and having all 12 tested and compared to the Cat standard.

The head casting itself was never a cause for concern, it was only the TRW valves delivered between about mid 1996 and about mid 1998 that were a problem.
 
fwebster said:
There was no design issue with the engine or valves. It is my understanding that the hardness of the TRW valves supplied to Caterpillar was the reason the valves failed. ON those t hat failed, the keepers pulled out of the valve stems allowing the valve to drop into the cylinder. To determine if this were the cause, as opposed to a random part failure, one would need to take the valve that failed to a metallurgical lab and have the hardness tested then compare the result to the manufacturer's standard for hardness. To determine it the valves in the other head were soft would mean removing it, disassembling the good valves and having all 12 tested and compared to the Cat standard.

The head casting itself was never a cause for concern, it was only the TRW valves delivered between about mid 1996 and about mid 1998 that were a problem.
Click to expand...

FYI..If you want to pursue the metallurgical issue, I may have access to the Metallurgical Facilities at the University of Alabama School of Engineering. My Grandfather was a professor there for 50 years and is the name sake of the Metal Casting Lab Wing. I am also an Allumni of the University.

PM me with any info that we need to exchange and we will share this with the board. Frank, your participation and guidance connected with this is requested.
 
My quotes are coming in all over the place. I have a high of about $33,000 and a low of $12,300 with other quotes in between. I am trying to decipher the quotes to compare what is included in each.
I understand that in these difficult times, there are lots of deals around. This is why I am talking a repair facilities in other other states. At this point, I'm in not rush to do the repair. I want to make the right decision and get the best deal.
Someone mentioned to me they heard of a few new 3116's sitting somewhere at a very reasonable price. My question is, do I really want to put back in the same engine's
 
Yes, I have already had this discussion of replacing the head on my other engine with a reman head. Two CAT facilities have suggested this as a preventative measure. The reman head part is not to costly, the big question is the labor. One place says it's a 4 hr job while another says about 1-1/2 days. Big difference
 
You point is quite valid and I have thought about this. At this point, we have no idea what the cause of the valve failure is.
I have no way to tell if my other engine has the problem or not.
I hadn't thought about the testing but it's an interesting possibility. Good food for thought.
 
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