Carbon monoxide fatality

Previous owner of our 330 removed the carbon monoxide detector. My guess is it kept going off so he removed it. It's not on the boat.

I went to Lowes and purchased 2 Kidie fire/carbon monoxide detectors. I installed one in the aft/mid cabin and one in the forward V-Berth. I figured a fire could get us as easy as carbon monoxide could.

While idling at the dock with hatches open the detectors will go off at times.

Is a home detector, like the ones I purchased, OK to use on a boat? They go off as mentioned above but I am not sure they are the best to use for a boat cabin.
 
tobnpr said:
The moral of the story is to have MULTIPLE detectors
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I agree with this, and it is a terrible shame...but I also think there is a point to be made about the 3 of them going to the boat and taking it upon themselves to begin operating dangerous equipment, despite being told NO by the boat's owner. I have had a similar situation occur and also told the person no, they couldn't stay on the boat overnight by themselves. Our cabin is locked when we are not on the boat anyway.
 
Home detectors aren't designed to be exposed to marine moisture conditions. They'll work... for a while. But the same can be said of the marine units. They'll also work for a while, probably several years as opposed to perhaps only one for a home unit.

Xintex, I believe, has a refurbishing option so you can get yours updated every so often.

I picked up a handheld unit so I'd be able to see ppm numbers. Very interesting how the levels vary from one part of the boat to another.
 
"I picked up a handheld unit so I'd be able to see ppm numbers. Very interesting how the levels vary from one part of the boat to another."

What make/model and where di you pick it up?

We have 2 years on the store bought ones, I test them frequently and so far so good. I always test them before we go to bed too.

I was just making sure they were designed to read as well in a small boat cabin as they are in a home.
 
What a shocking and sad story. Trying to figure out why a boat that size has a 50 amp shorepower connection...

Like FourSuns, we have a diesel and run it non-stop when away from the dock. Diesel exhaust has negligible amounts of carbon monoxide. My greatest concern is poisoning coming from other boats anchored or slipped upwind of us.

Being originally from the upper mid-west, this is a story that tragically repeats itself over and over again in homes, apartments, RV's and boats due to heating cycles that we don't have down here in FL.
 
mrsrobinson said:
Is a home detector, like the ones I purchased, OK to use on a boat? They go off as mentioned above but I am not sure they are the best to use for a boat cabin.
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I would like to comment on this.

First, we have 2 onboard. 1 is a factory OEM carbon monoxide detector that is in the cabin by the forward V birth.

I added a battery powered combination unit as you described. This unit is not marine rated.

We have had both go off at different times. Two examples, once idling in our slip with the cabin door open and an aft to bow wind. I wanted to see what would happen. Once when idling slowly across the lake, also with an open cabin door, closed hatch and following seas. I test both regularly via the test button. Both times I did this on purpose to see and learn. I was in the cockpit and the cockpit was very open.

Here is the issue. Remember the little boy who cried wolf? Well, marine rated stuff is more expensive and sometimes inferior. Some items are different, many items are not. Most are just an excuse to charge more. The issue is its hard to know when you are getting better or just being a sucker paying more.

Here are three examples I will use where NMMA marine rated items are complete BS.

There is no difference between a marine rated serpentine belt and a non-marine rated one. I was at an OEM making these belts at change over time. The only difference was the packaging. This ‘marine rated’ items were purely a marketing ploy to make more money.

Wire terminals. I represent the company who invented the soderless terminal. I have trained most, not some but most of this manufacturer’s representatives through the country on proper terminal selection and installation. These terminals meet the military specification MIL-T-7928. They are specified on military equipment as well as by many heavy industrial users throughout the world. They never have applied to be NMMA approved because what is known in the industry as mil-spec is a significantly higher standard. I have cut off and replaced most of the marine rated terminals on my boat. They are cheap terminals with no selective annealing, no internal barrel serrations, short barrels and if you ever tried to use a marine rated disconnect more then one time (push it on, take if off, put it on again) you will find they come off extremely easy and are, in my opinion, not reusable. If they are not reusable, why is it an disconnect in the first place? I could go on for pages however marine rated terminals are inferior and I will not use them. My local customers include a manufacturer of military vessels in Marinette WI.

Cable ties. I also represent the company that invented the cable tie. These cable ties are made from nylon 6/6 (virgin nylon) and have a 316 stainless steel locking device in the head. The locking device allows the cable tie body to be free if notches. Nylon is hydroscopic. Over time it will absorb and give off moisture. As this happens the nylon will degrade. By making the cable tie free of notches the stress points are eliminated. This design allows the cable tie to maintain close to its original strength for a long life. You will not find cheap one piece regrind nylon cable ties on a military vessel, nor mine but you will find them on the shelf at your local marine retail store.

I have no idea if the marine rated carbon detectors are any different or just more expensive. I have justified that when it comes to carbon monoxide detectors that we have the one that is marine rated and came with my NMMA certified vessel. Anything I add is above and beyond the manufacturer’s safety standard.

Yes, my owner installed supplemental carbon monoxide detector is not marine rated. It’s tested by me often and its staying right where it is.

Due to the above three examples, I have come to the conclusion that ‘marine rated’ equals more expensive but not necessarily better or even as good. I’m sure some will be able to give examples where marine rated is better however if you can find examples where it does not hold true we are back to that little boy that cried wolf.
 
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True, with any product that has counterparts in many markets there's undoubtedly going to be some overlap. I'm not sure I'd use a rubber belt, nylon ties and simple terminals as a broad enough sampling though. Having sold semi-conductors to the military/intel markets I'm likewise familiar with that overlap, along with misunderstandings about "mil-spec". A spec for something is just that, not an overall indicator that it's better than some other spec unless you make a direct comparison. What's needed in one environment may well be entirely wasteful overkill in another. I've seen way too many 'mil-spec' requirements for applications that had no need for it. But, then again, when the gov't puts something into storage for DECADES it might matter. For a consumer-grade boat? Not quite as important.
 
There are things in live I do by rules and one of most important is "always have a backup". On 240DA (no genset) I've added one battery operated CO detector, which I considered as a backup to the one that was installed by Sea Ray. Now for my 320DA (with genset) I will have 3 different types. 1-original OEM already installed, 1-battery operated, 1-120v regular house CO. I'm on the same page with Doug as far as product rating for some items. One time OEM CO detector on 240 went bad, I put the new one in and it lasted no more than 1.5-2 seasons.
So far the one CO I've used that's battery operated is fine after last season and I'll re-use it this season. In any event, if non marine rated will go bad after one season it's still not that expensive to get one every year, but I'm pretty sure that if I take those CO units home for the winter they'll last for few years.

So, my theory is that if I have 3 different types of CO detectors I'm pretty safe in case my genset would throw a "surprise".

I aslo have questions for members that have good experiance using genset and a/c over night. Do you guys keep everything closed (hatches, door) or do you keep something open just a little for fresh air to find it's way in?

Thanks,
Alex.
 
wkearney99 said:
True, with any product that has counterparts in many markets there's undoubtedly going to be some overlap. I'm not sure I'd use a rubber belt, nylon ties and simple terminals as a broad enough sampling though. Having sold semi-conductors to the military/intel markets I'm likewise familiar with that overlap, along with misunderstandings about "mil-spec". A spec for something is just that, not an overall indicator that it's better than some other spec unless you make a direct comparison. What's needed in one environment may well be entirely wasteful overkill in another. I've seen way too many 'mil-spec' requirements for applications that had no need for it. But, then again, when the gov't puts something into storage for DECADES it might matter. For a consumer-grade boat? Not quite as important.
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I have agreement with your above post.

The issue is the way the ‘marine rated’ system works. As a consumer I found examples where two products, one more expensive with a marine rating and one less expensive with out a marine rating, where the non-marine rated product is the same or better. This resulted in my lack of trust in the marine rating system.

Once the trust in the standard is gone it’s a slippery slope and easy to conclude that if marine rated on X product that I have specific knowledge about is BS then the other items where I do not have specific knowledge could also be BS.

We have the factory installed marine rated CO detector. I test it regularly both with the test button and on occasion by forcing exhaust fumes into the cabin. In the future I may try the plastic bag technique that I read about, this is new to me and does sound safer. This factory supplied CO detector meets the manufacturer’s safety standard and my vessel is a NMMA yacht certified.

Anything I add is above the manufacturer’s standard. I have never heard a claim that adding a battery powered combination fire and CO non-marine rated detector adds to risk so I can conclude that I have at least not done harm and per my testing of forcing exhaust into the cabin resulting in this detector going off I believe I have added to the overall safety of the vessel. I plan to add a 3rd unit.

Just wait. Someone will post that I am putting my family at risk by adding a supplemental non-marine rated battery powered combination smoke + CO detector. If that is the case then isn’t Sea Ray putting my family at risk since it only provided 1 CO detector? You can take all of this to the point of being ridiculous.

A guy that goes by Bob blouderback from another boating forum (these two sites to not allow links from one to the other so you will need to figure out what other site) has a very active post titled “When is too much TOO MUCH?” The question goes along this line. If two VHF radios are better then one, aren’t three better then two? Four better then three? Is the boater with 20,000 VHF radios onboard a safer boater then the one with 19,999?

I carry all USCG required safety equipment and more. I took the class (not required in my area for my age) and more. I have a pre-departure safety ritual, printed guest pre-departure safety briefing and more. All totaled this is well above the requirements. I have a built in VHF as well as a hand held. Two chartplotters. The deluxe big round Orion flair kit. A GPS EPIRB. Extra this, that and the other thing.

I have come to the same conclusion as one of the excellent replies to Bob blouderback forum post. I have many safety related items. The one I rely upon the most is between my ears.


Marine rated = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTufHU5eQQE&NR=1
 
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"I aslo have questions for members that have good experiance using genset and a/c over night. Do you guys keep everything closed (hatches, door) or do you keep something open just a little for fresh air to find it's way in?"

You may want to start a new one for this, but I will go ahead and answer, we always leave a hatch open, at a minimum the one above where we are sleep, and we leave a fan running.
 
Can some of you give make/models of these CO detectors you're talking about? A friend of mine is asking about it (I sent her the link of the story) and she'd like to know what she should get. I don't have a cabin, so all I know about are home type detectors.

Thanks,
-Garth
 
Garth,

I don’t know what brand Sea Ray installed but it is a marine rated CO detector that is hard wired.

Like Greg (mrrobinson) above, we installed a Kidde combination carbon monoxide and smoke alarm. Unlike Greg, ours is powered by a 9V battery. I think I got it at Home Depot or Walmart or similar retail store. I mounted this in the mid birth.


I think this is it
http://www.westsidewholesale.com/in...SessionID=@@@@1207237994.32075@@@@&pid=972231


I plan to add one more, bringing us up to 3. One factory OEM CO, one smoke + CO, one with a readout, just CO.

I think this one will be it
http://www.westsidewholesale.com/in...SessionID=@@@@1207237994.32075@@@@&pid=972236
 
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Presentation said:
Garth,

I don’t know what brand Sea Ray installed but it is a marine rated CO detector that is hard wired.

Like Greg (mrrobinson) above, we installed a Kidde combination carbon monoxide and smoke alarm. Unlike Greg, ours is powered by a 9V battery. I think I got it at Home Depot or Walmart or similar retail store. I mounted this in the mid birth.
Click to expand...

Ours are powered by 9V batteries too. It hit the test button routinely to hear the ladies friendly voice warning me.

The hard wired one installed by Sea Ray has been removed, by a previous owner I assume. The wires are sticking out of the bulkhead where the breaker panel is installed. I may installed one the one's I referenced in the other/new thread there.
 
I'm assuming this would be something you should get too if you have camper canvas on, since it's an enclosed space that could collect fumes from your/others engines.

-Garth
 
I wonder how many lives this story may save in the long run.

I just bought two of the kidde brand battery powered Co detectors.

I don't have a generator but I raft up often with people that do. I never thought I needed it, but I can see now why I would. I'm putting one in the aft cabin and one up front in the v-berth.

I feel like I've dodged a bullet every time I have slept in the aft cabin while the boats next to me have had generators running.

To think I could have gone to sleep and not have woken up for something so easy to prevent is scary.

We spend thousands of dollars on toys, but spending $38 on a detector can save your life!
 
I think I read something recently where some high level military man(admiral, general?) was on his boat, and died of CO too.

-Garth
 
The news report also erred in stating that 30 ppm of CO is a "deadly level". The OSHA permissible exposure limit for an 8-hour time-weighted-average is 50 ppm. I expect the levels were above 400 ppm, probably far above that. At 400 ppm, you'd get a headache after 2 or 3 hours. I can tell you that a small engine exhaust leak into an occupied area can raise the CO level to fatal concentrations VERY quickly. It must've been at 30 ppm after the genset was turned off and the cabin ventilated quite a bit.

Dennis
 
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