Carbon monoxide fatality

Glad we saw this post. think we'll go shopping for a detector this weekend.

chazaroo
 
Diesels don't emit enough CO to be an issue, right?
I had a CO detector on my last gas boat, but the diesel 390 I recently purchased does not have a CO detector on board- am I wrong about this?

I find it hard to believe a manufacturer or other professional installation of a gas genset would not include a CO detector. If that's the case they need to get their azzes sued off...
 
osd9 said:
I was at a marina as a transient two seasons ago when another boat pulled in two slips away late at night. (for me it was late...about 9PM) I guess he was just too lazy to get out his cords and plug in so he started his genie. He and his guest then got off the boat and started to walk away. I called him back and he got an attitude. So I called the security guard and when he got there, in his presence, I went on board and shut down his genie......some folks just don't get it......
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Dom;

I think you need to educate me on this one. :smt024 I don't have a Genie on my boat. Why did you feel compelled to shut down his gennie? Aren't these things designed to run unattended?

Is this not like leaving a car engine running the parking lot while you run into a store? A bit rude. . but is this a safety risk? Are you worried about the fire risk?

Thanks in advance for the insight. :smt100

___________

Regardless; If you are onboard in an enclosed space running internal combustion engines, I think you defiantely need CO detectors.
 
Compared to gas engines, diesel produce almost no CO and neither the ABYC not the USCG require their installation in diesel powered boats.

Requirements are one thing, but being practical is another. How many of you diesel guys travel with or raft up with some gas powered boats? What about their emissions? Where the CO comes from does not matter ...it will still kill you. I installed a CO detector the first weekend we owned our 450 because we do travel with gas powered friends.

Even though you have diesel engines, you would be wise to add a CO detector to your boat.
 
I recently caused quite a stir from my slip neighbor...my genie sucked up some weeds and plugged my sea strainer. I serviced the strainer and decided to replace the impeller. After I was finished I started it up to check the job for leaks. I closed the engine hatch and decided to let it run long enough to exercise it for the week.

The next thing I new, my neighbor was coming on board to demand to know what I was doing. He had every right to. I shut it down shortly thereafter.

When we anchor out for the night, I try to stay clear of others anchorages not only for the privacy, but for the CO2 reasons, theirs as well as mine.

Even though we have a detector in the forward sleeping area, I'm going to add a second to a piece of wood as a backup; plus it can be portable.
 
After reading some earlier topics regarding CO, I got a detector for my boat that has a digital readout. I have found CO present in the boat when I got it home and put away in the shop. Readings were somewhere between 30 and maybe 60, I don't remember for sure. But what I really noticed was that with the cabin closed, those readings don't change much over 24 hours.

I think it is very possible that if you get CO in the cabin, from station wagon effect, then close the cabin, it will stay in there longer than you do.

I also found that with the detector plugged in a wall socket in the shop, if I start up the tractor, drive it out, and close the shop door, the detector will likely go into alarm after a while. Readings again commonly less than 70. Sometimes I have to take the detector outside to make it quit beeping. I find it is hard to get rid of the CO once it gets inside.

Just my experience. I am very thankful I bought the digital readout detector so I could see these things.
 
OK. . . a little of my background. :smt024

Part of my job involves the startup of CO production plants. Carbon Monoxide is an industrial "building block" chemical used to make things we use every day. (think dashboards. think Tide detergent.) By "startup", I mean the first time the facility produces CO. Think a maze of 10" pipes and 4,000hp high pressure gas compressors.

So . .. .when doing this type of work, we wear portable CO detectors and have permanently mounted CO monitors in strategic locations. Leaks are inevitable. They are found and fixed. The portable digital detectors are excellent. Very good to not only identify when the general area is marginal. . but also for pinpointing where the leak is originating.

CO is a hazard because human blood will preferentially adsorb CO over oxygen. And once adsorbed. . .the CO stays in the blood, so despite the fact that you are breathing, you are not taking in as much oxygen.

CO is a real hazard above 25 parts per million. If your detector is reading over this amount. . .you want to leave. If your cabin is reading more than 5 ppm, you want to ventilate the cabin to get that number down. CO has (more or less) the same density as air. It will neither sink nor rise. Merely opening a hatch probably won't be enough. You want to MOVE AIR through the cabin to get it out.

Readings of "70" would indicate a problem. :smt009

Engines produce CO when they are not burning 100% of the fuel completely. A perfect gas burner will produce no CO (100% combustion of fuel). Most gasoline engines are NOT perfect, and will produce some CO. This what kills you if you leave a car engine running in a sealed garage.

CO2 is carbon dioxide. You get CO2 by completely burning a fuel. If you burn gasoline, your exhaust is pretty much CO2, water, and extra unconsumed air. These are the DESIRED products of combustion. If you are not making CO2 from combustion, then you are making CO. . which is bad. (which is why "curbing CO2 emmissions" and "coal fired power plants" don't work well together. . .if you burn coal, you make BULK CO2)

CO2 is more or less non-hazardous. You can suffocate on CO2 if it displaces air, but it will not poison you like CO will. Of course, if you REPLACE your air with CO2.. you will be in trouble. But the problem is not the CO2. . it will be the LACK of oxygen. Air is about 21% O2. You don't want to be in air with less than 19% O2.

Normal air has about 400ppm CO2. (this is slowly going up over time). You won't be in trouble until you reach several PERCENT CO2 (because it dilutes your air. . . .)

______________-

Now. . .I am new to powerboats. I don't have a gennie, and don't run my engines when on the hook. From what I am reading in this thread. . .it seems like the big problem is that most boat cabins are not real well ventilated. And you certainly aren't ventilated if you are running an A/C unit. So if you are running a gennie at a dock. . your exhaust is finding its way into the cabins of other boats -> and is not getting out quick enough. The toxic thresholds for CO is really low.

SO. . .unless you are putting good sized fans into your hatches. . .you want a CO detector to find if anything bad is building up where you don't want it. I would want a detector on any boat with either a diesel or gas engine. You want one in your house if you have any sort of wood, gas, or oil heat.

Don't sweat the CO2 (unless you are concerned about global warming)
 
comsnark said:
osd9 said:
I was at a marina as a transient two seasons ago when another boat pulled in two slips away late at night. (for me it was late...about 9PM) I guess he was just too lazy to get out his cords and plug in so he started his genie. He and his guest then got off the boat and started to walk away. I called him back and he got an attitude. So I called the security guard and when he got there, in his presence, I went on board and shut down his genie......some folks just don't get it......
Click to expand...

Dom;

I think you need to educate me on this one. :smt024 I don't have a Genie on my boat. Why did you feel compelled to shut down his gennie? Aren't these things designed to run unattended?

In a Marina, starting any engine, IMHO, and then leaving it to run for a few HOURS is both RUDE and DANGEROUS. I'm not talking about a daytime repair and then starting to confirm the repair is good. I'm talking about starting your engine/genie and then leaving, so the rest of the folks sitting around and enjoying the evening, are left to hear and breath your exhaust. Boats are tied, literally, within a foot of each other.

Many boats, espeically on calm cool nights, leave their hatches open while they sleep. If the boat RIGHT NEXT TO THEM has their genie/engine running, and the exhaust is venting directly into thier direction, than YES it both RUDE and DANGEROUS.

Is this not like leaving a car engine running the parking lot while you run into a store? A bit rude. . but is this a safety risk? Are you worried about the fire risk?

VERY different....he didn't just pull up and run into the 7-11 for a slurpy.....they went out for the evening.....

Thanks in advance for the insight. :smt100

No Problem....anytime...!!!

___________

Regardless; If you are onboard in an enclosed space running internal combustion engines, I think you defiantely need CO detectors.
Click to expand...
 
For us folks with the Fiireboy Xintex Co Sentinel type detectors.... the company offers a mail in program where they will test the sensor and circuitry. Repair, replacement, or calibration is also included. The cost is $25. I sent mine in after the first year and will continue to do so.... I picked up a spare to install in the boat while the other was in the mail. Why not be sure.

Page 13

http://www.fireboy-xintex.com/manuals/CMD4MR.pdf

We also carry 2 of the digital readout detectors. I like to keep one in the cockpit and one in the cabin. The few bucks it costs is well worth living.
 
i also have 2 CO detectors in my 240DA. The factory detector and a digital readout CO detector. THis weekend, we were rafted up with 4 other boats. 1 had a generator which we all used to cook with on his boat. I kept my cabin door and windows closed and the digital readout read zero the entire time (no one was allowed in any cabin while the gen was running as we cooked). As a test, i opened the cabin door while the gen was running on the neighboring boat and watched the digital readout from my helm station. It slowly but surely climbed to over 60 ppm at its peak. Scary when you think about how quickly things can get deadly with CO. The gen was shut down and all the cabins were aired out for several hours and all the digital readouts were once again zero. It was an interesting test thats for sure but i think it helps prove the point that any boat with a cabin should have at least 1 CO detector and be very aware of who is running what around you. Be safe out there...

Mike
 
I heard some dock talk last weekend from someone who knew the poor souls that died. He indicated they were all smokers and had unplugged the carbon monoxide detector because it was going off from smoking in the cabin. I’m uncertain how reliable this information is because I assumed the detectors would only activate due to the presence of carbon monoxide and not cigarette smoke or carbon dioxide.
 
I have heard claims that cig smoke contains some carbon monoxide. If you don't have *perfect* burning. . .you will get some carbon monoxide. Not alot. . but if you are in a *confined space* like a *sealed cabin* you will have smaller margins for error.
 
LMBoat said:
It is very sad. Are there any more details? Why would they run a generator at the dock? I did see shore power connections on other boats in the marina.
Click to expand...
Spoke with a adjoining slip mate of the guy who owned this boat.
He had just bought the boat and did not have the correct power cord. I was told the boat is 50 amp service and he had 30 amp cord. Anyway, a new cord was to be bought but in the meantime his sister and friends decided to spend the night and used the generator. Apparently they were heavily intoxicated and this might have kept them from noticing any early signs of poisening.
Sad story all the same.
 
chazaroo said:
We don't have a generator and we don't have a carbon monoxide detector either. I always thought without the first you don't need the second. Maybe I'm wrong...

Chazaroo
Click to expand...


Any boat with an enclosed cabin (even a cuddy) should have one. Last year, our detector went off even with the windows all open. We started the genie to microwave some food. Only on for about 15 minutes. It proved to me without a doubt that this is a real danger, even when you don't expect it.

We have 3 on board, one in each cabin space. One was going off randomly last year so I plan to replace all three this year. I understand that they do in fact go bad over a few years.
 
Sad....why were they saying that it was a "new" boat. SeaRay probably doesnt like that.

I dont like the news people. Never getting it right.
 
I ordered a new CO Dectector a couple weeks ago from Jim here at BOE.
It's all ready to install.
 
Very tragic. CO detectors are a saftey must.
 
Thanks for posting the follow-up.
I see a lawsuit coming from the families of the deceased...
The vessel was surveyed only the week before. IF the CO detector was tested (it would show in the surveyor's report- and I bet it wasn't) it surely would have failed the self-test as it did for the investigator. Responsiblity also lies with the dead boaters-who didn't know any better- that should have tested the detector before staying aboard.

It is interesting that Aqua Meter does not manufacture these anymore?

I checked and Xintex CO detectors self-test every 10 seconds while operating- a real nice feature to have. The moral of the story is to have MULTIPLE detectors- test them every time boarding the boat- and be sure they're wired hot all the time, or at least connected directly to the battery switch so you can't "forget" to turn them on.

Also goes to show how SMALL a leak can be deadly- the investigator still wasn't sure where the leak was! He also stated that the cabin bulkheads appeared to be properly sealed. So, not sure exactly where the leak is, can't determine how the CO even got into the cabin space- yet three people died needlessly. If I had a gas boat with a gen- and spent nights aboard- I'd sell it and get a new low CO model. It just wouldn't be worth losing sleep over. Doesn't make sense to trust your family's lives to a $100 piece of electronics...
 
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