Canvas Top Attachment to Windshield

[lawndoctor]

Is it true that Sea Ray has stopped using rubber inserts on canvas tops that are inserted into a groove in the windshield frame in older model boats, and instead is now using snaps to attach canvas tops to the windshield? If so, is there a way to retro fit an earlier Sea Ray to use snaps instead of the rubber/groove system? Thanks.

 

[Alex F]

My 2001 240DA had the rubber inserts. My 2004 320DA has the rubber liner (to provide tighter fit) and snaps. I like the new design better. If you're replacing your pannels and new one doesn't have the insert just have your local canvas shop install the snaps and you'll be fine.

 

[lawndoctor]

Thanks for your reply. On my boat, there are no snap fittings on the windshield frame, only the slot for the rubber thing. How would having the canvas shop put snaps on the canvas help?

 

[Henry Boyd]

My 2001 240DA had the rubber inserts. My 2004 320DA has the rubber liner (to provide tighter fit) and snaps. I like the new design better. If you're replacing your pannels and new one doesn't have the insert just have your local canvas shop install the snaps and you'll be fine.

You would think that is the case but it is not. The depth geometry of the extrusion for the windshield top rail is different between the two attachment types. It looks the same but the dimensions are just slightly off.

I learned this the hard way. For some reason unknown to Sea Ray, or at least current employees, our 2002 was built with the newer rubber seal and snaps. Our boat was built by the Phoenix plant and there has been some suggestion that in the process of winding down, or leading to the wind down resulted in slight anomalies. I do know the canvas was not supplied by Great Lakes, and that may be the explanation. Anyway, I digress.

Towards the end of season before we bought our boat it was hit in its slip by another boat. The starboard side windshield was damaged. The damage was slight enough so that the boat could be used for the last few weeks, but severe enough to require a complete windshield side. Insurance covered the accident and a new windshield was ordered from Sea Ray (actually Taylor) and installed over the winter layup. But because the canvas was off the boat for the winter it was never installed. In the spring we bought the boat while it was in storage. (To head off the 'you should have had a survey' comments, The PO is a friend and we knew the boat's complete history.)

At spring commissioning we discovered that the plastic wedges that hold the snap stem screw in place would not work. The depth of the groove was too shallow and they just pulled out. Bottom lining all of the back and forth between Sea Ray, Taylor and the dealer who handled the sale, all of whom acted first rate, we learned that the older top rail extrusion has a shallower groove than the newer style. The deeper grove is needed to allow the plastic wedges to properly seat. It turned out the windshield half supplied was correct for 2002 280, but not for our boat.

After spitballing a number of ideas that went everywhere from Taylor sending a new top rail, we worked out a simpler solution to remove the end cap from the rail and insert threaded lugs into the grove to hold the snaps. This still required a partial disassembly of the windshield, although not as great a job as replacing the entire top rail.

The take away is that if you want to convert, it can be done, but it is not a slam dunk.

Henry

 

[dpmulvey]

Saint Max is a 99 hardtop. I need new front panels if not this year, then next. Is the rubber rail no longer available? If so, where can it be purchased. If not, could you please post pix of the before and after if you have them.

TIA

 

[Nehalennia]

Thanks for your reply. On my boat, there are no snap fittings on the windshield frame, only the slot for the rubber thing. How would having the canvas shop put snaps on the canvas help?

They'd add the snaps male base on the windshield too.

 

[lawndoctor]

They'd add the snaps male base on the windshield too.

How would a canvas shop do that? Is there some type of fitting that will hold the male snap base in the existing groove in the windshield frame, or would they have to drill into the windshield frame to screw the male snap bases in?

 

[Nehalennia]

How would a canvas shop do that? Is there some type of fitting that will hold the male snap base in the existing groove in the windshield frame, or would they have to drill into the windshield frame to screw the male snap bases in?

Yes, they'd just screwed new snap bases on the windshield frame.
Also, I haven't heard that Taylor has discontinued the extruded rubber. I like it when it's on and nicely sealed, but in colder weather it's kind of a pain to get on.

 

[JeffM]

The previous owner of our boat had the dealer add snaps at either end of all pieces with the rubber insert. The male ends are screwed into the windsield frame. IIRC, the snaps are a bit lower than the rubber insert, so the screws go into the frame and not the channel for the insert.

To install each window, one snaps the first end, feeds the insert into the channel, and then reaches through the zipper to snap the last one. Works quite well, but as Todd says, it can be a challenge when it's cold. Best tip I got was to install all the inserts before zipping any of the windows together.

 

[Alex F]

As with anything, there are number of different ways to do things and different shops have different method. I like the y my snaps are installed on the windshild of my 320. They used special fittings that slides in the groove (one for each snap), this is the base for for each snap. It holds well and the most important thing is that you can move them to have them allign to the snaps on the pannels when installing your canvas. Very simple and convenient approach.

 

[lawndoctor]

They used special fittings that slides in the groove (one for each snap), this is the base for for each snap. It holds well and the most important thing is that you can move them to have them allign to the snaps on the pannels when installing your canvas. Very simple and convenient approach.

Thanks - This sounds like a great solution. Would you be able to give me any more specific information on the snap fittings so I could get some? I haven't seen anything like this in the Taylor catalog.

 

[Alex F]

unfortunatelly, I don't have much more details, b/c this is how I got the boat and it was already there. I can take pictures, but it'll be a while. My boat is 45min away and I don't plan on going there until couple of weeks.

 

[lawndoctor]

That would be great, thanks. Do you happen to know who did the work? I'm not far from your area, so I could probably work with the same shop or dealer.

 

[Alex F]

I got my boat in FL, so I doubt that close enough for you. Let me try to take some pictures (hopefully I wont forget) and then you take it to your local shop. I'm sure there's no magic there, you just need the right parts. May be even local MM store can get it for you.

 

[lawndoctor]

You were right about that. I called Taylor Made Products and it turns out they have a product specifically made for this purpose. It is not in their catalog because it is not a standard part, but was actually invented by one of their employees to solve this problem. It is a small plastic piece that fits in the slot and is held in place by expanding it by tightening a screw. As you say, it can be loosened, moved, and re-tightened. A male snap fitting can then be screwed into the plastic piece.

In case you or anyone else could use the information, the part is called a "Vadney clip" (named after the guy who invented and patented it), Taylor part number 1178120. They can be ordered directly from Taylor for about 75 cents a piece. The Taylor rep said the piece fits windshields from model years 2000 and later.

Thanks again for your help with this.

 

[Alex F]

Wow, nice. I'm glad the resolution to the issue was only couple phone calls away. I'm happy that I was able to stear you in the right direction. As you can imagine, as long us the clpis fit in your windshield the rest is pretty easy.

We got to give credit to Mr.Vadney for coming up with very simple and effective approach.

Cheers,
Alex.

 

[Henry Boyd]

You were right about that. I called Taylor Made Products and it turns out they have a product specifically made for this purpose. It is not in their catalog because it is not a standard part, but was actually invented by one of their employees to solve this problem. It is a small plastic piece that fits in the slot and is held in place by expanding it by tightening a screw. As you say, it can be loosened, moved, and re-tightened. A male snap fitting can then be screwed into the plastic piece.

In case you or anyone else could use the information, the part is called a "Vadney clip" (named after the guy who invented and patented it), Taylor part number 1178120. They can be ordered directly from Taylor for about 75 cents a piece. The Taylor rep said the piece fits windshields from model years 2000 and later.

Thanks again for your help with this.

Read my earlier post. The Taylor rep is wrong, if your boat was built with the rubber extrusion the vadney clip will not work. I spent several weeks corresponding with one of their VPs trying to resolve this issue.

The Vadney clip will not work on 'old style' top rails. Old style being the type that accepts the rubber extrusion. The depth of that rail is too shallow for the Vadney clip, as a result it pops out.

In order to use snaps on an old style top rail, you must either drill and screw the snap into the top rail. Or do as I did and make lugs with threaded holes that can be inserted into the end the rail.

Henry

 

[lawndoctor]

Thanks for all this detailed information. I should have read your earlier post more closely. It's never simple, is it?

If I understand this correctly, the fact that my canvas attaches to the windshield frame only with the rubber extrusion, not with any snaps to the windshield frame, means that my boat has the "older" windshield frame, which means that the groove in my windshield frame is too shallow for the Vadney clips.

Assuming that's correct, I still have zero interest in drilling holes into my windshield frame. Can you tell me if it is difficult to remove and reinstall the end caps of the windshield frame to facilitate inserting the lugs? I'm assuming that's just a screw or two. Also, is there any particular trick to making the lugs? I'm relatively handy and I have lots of tools, so even with this work it still sounds like a good solution to the problem.

 

[Alex F]

If you didn't order the clips yet, I would just get a sample (couple pieces). Thenm you'll know for sure if it fits or not. Also, depending on how the clip is made, there's always an option trying to make it fit within the frame. I wouldn't rule it out until I see it in my hands.

 

[Henry Boyd]

Alex,

The Vadney clips can't be made to fit the older top rails. They are a wedge that is split and hinged at the bottom. At the top of the clip the side is grooved to accept the lip of the rail. The snap screws into the clip pushing the grooves tight against the rail lip. The hinge at the bottom holds the two sides together. ALthough it is bottomed on the rail the only gripping is taking place up at the top.

Because the recess in the rail is too shallow on the older rails, three possible results can occur:

1) Just inserting the clip does not work because it sits too high and because the sides of the clip are wedge shaped, and only in contact at the lip of the rail as the snap is screwed in it just pops right out on its own.

2) cutting the bottom of the clip does not work because although the grooves at the top contact the lip of the rail, as the snap is screwed in the now separated pieces just spread apart and there is no grip on the threads of the snap. They install but pull out at the slightest load.

3) cutting the top off does not work because the top acts to restrain the clip from rotating when the snap is screwed in. Without a top the clip just turns when the snap is screwed in.

Henry