Can't crank engine over

[Dave M.]

Well, I had some time this evening to start working towards my starter problem repair. Got the wires off the starter and out of the way. Removed the water intake hose to the raw water pump and moved it up out of the way. Then it was easy to get in and take out the remaining starter bolt, then remove the starter.

Then, with a mirror, I was able to see the end of the broken bolt, up in the engine block maybe 3/16's of an inch. With nothing to grab, I poked at it with a dental pick, and it moved. With some more poking, out it came! :thumbsup:

The unbroken bolt is visibly bent at the end of the threaded section, though it is not very visible in this picture. Could have happened after the other one broke off, and the starter was swinging by one bolt.

First, thank you all that suggested this might come out easily, it really did.

:smt038

Now to find replacement bolts.

 

[SearayPaul]

Now you do not have an excuse to buy a new drill.

 

[Skip]

Dave, great news. All DIY repairs involving a broken bolt in the block should end as well!

I had meant to post earlier the end of my Cummins starter saga. I ordered a remanufactured starter from Cummins ($350; new one is $1,000). As it turns out , the Cummins parts house had no reman's in stock. So they provided a new one for the cost of a reman. Very good. As the Cummins Tech was bolting it in place I told him about turning the big pulley by hand to get the starter free/past the chipped teeth and therefore able to start the engine. He looked at me for a moment, gave a barely perceptible shake of his head, and told me that if this ever happens again, to simply put a wrench on the smallest pulley on the belt, and with about one tenth the muscle, turn the small pulley and let the drive belt do the rest to move the big pulley. Makes perfect sense, but on that morning, with the sheared off bolt below the water line, I guess I was just not as focused as I might have been.

Oh well. Another lesson learned.

regards
Skip

 

[Four Suns]

Great pictures! Those belong in a engineering materials text book they are so good.

That picture shows bending metal fatigue (and it's text book clear). You can see the "waves" where basically the joint broke a little each time before it completely failed. See:

http://materials.open.ac.uk/mem/mem_mf3.htm

I have a BS in Aero Engineering (don't use that degree much anymore) and we used to break bolts like this all the time. It generally took a lot of cycles though so it is curious how that happened. I would guess the engine vibration from running allowed the housing to beat on the sides of the bolt from them being lose. My 2 cents.

I would replace both bolts if I were you and make sure they are torqued correctly from time to time as you said.

 

[Dave M.]

Gary, thanks for the link and the analysis on what happened. My background is in electronics, and we did similar analysis on IC's that failed to see why they failed. That was quite a few moons ago!

When I moved out of design into a field operational environment, it took a few years before I quit wanting to send every broken electronics part in for failure analysis.

I appreciate knowing how to read this failure. The remaining bolt was surprisingly loose, so I think you have nailed the cause.

 

[Dave M.]

Dave, great news. All DIY repairs involving a broken bolt in the block should end as well!

I am still amazed that it came out so easily. I don't understand why the bolt threads are not a tighter fit in the block than they are.

He looked at me for a moment, gave a barely perceptible shake of his head...
Skip

I don't think I would have thought of that. Now that you say it, it is obvious that the leverage you get is the ratio of the pulley radius to the wrench handle length. That's the kind of the thing that once the light turns on, you will never forget.

By the way, I have been meaning to tell you that your entire story here is destroying my image of what a 40+ ft boat owner should be like. I am seeing a carefree owner, nice sport jacket, maybe scarf too that blows in the wind while cruising, and some nice white driving gloves while you are out cruising as the master of your world. The image of being down there turning that diesel over by hand, with water coming in, far from the lift, is just plain wrong! You should have to spend some time in a penalty box or something for crushing that great image I had. :smt089 :smt089 :smt089

 

[Four Suns]

By the way, I have been meaning to tell you that your entire story here is destroying my image of what a 40+ ft boat owner should be like. I am seeing a carefree owner, nice sport jacket, maybe scarf too that blows in the wind while cruising, and some nice white driving gloves while you are out cruising as the master of your world.

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Skip? Frank? You guys where a sport jacket while driving the boat? I must have missed that memo!

 

[fwebster]

You have me confused with some other Frank if you think I wear a sport jacket for anything..........heck, it takes a wedding or a funeral for me to even wear a shirt with buttons on it!

And to continue to soil my image, I"m kind of a contradiction, I may drive a Lexus LS, but there are enough tools in the trunk to rebuild it.

 

[tc410]

I may drive a Lexus LS....

Frank, I never pictured you as a Lexus kind of guy. For some reason I pictured you driving around in a Mercedes, you know, one with a TURBO DIESEL engine!

 

[Dave M.]

Well, the local marine shop owner says I won the lottery today, as he happened to have two of the bolts in stock. I don't know why he had them, as most of his business is smaller fishing boats. But now they are installed, and 'river tested' today! :thumbsup:

Thanks to all for the good ideas. Cost to get going again was less than $16 plus gas to go get the parts, and some time. :grin:

Frank, I never pictured you as a Lexus kind of guy. For some reason I pictured you driving around in a Mercedes, you know, one with a TURBO DIESEL engine!

They just have not been available for a while. With the ULSD now out, I understand they are working to get approval for their exhaust particulate control system. If that flies, then maybe we could see a nice turbo diesel Mercedes again. That would be worth looking at!

 

[Dave S]

By the way, I have been meaning to tell you that your entire story here is destroying my image of what a 40+ ft boat owner should be like. I am seeing a carefree owner, nice sport jacket, maybe scarf too that blows in the wind while cruising, and some nice white driving gloves while you are out cruising as the master of your world. The image of being down there turning that diesel over by hand, with water coming in, far from the lift, is just plain wrong! You should have to spend some time in a penalty box or something for crushing that great image I had. :smt089 :smt089 :smt089

Dave...............a requirement for giving any kind of mechanical advice on this board is you also have to have grease under your finger nails and some skinned knuckles from time to time so maybe guys like Gary, Frank, and Skip do occasionally wear white gloves to hide their hands. :wink: :grin:

 

[tc410]

They just have not been available for a while. With the ULSD now out, I understand they are working to get approval for their exhaust particulate control system. If that flies, then maybe we could see a nice turbo diesel Mercedes again. That would be worth looking at!

Mercedes "re-introduced" the E Class sedan with diesel in 2005 to the US. This year, they introduced the new generation Bluetec diesel (ULSD) in the E and offer the CDI in the ML, GL, and R class vehicles in the US. http://www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alternative-fuels/index.do

 

[Dave M.]

They just have not been available for a while. With the ULSD now out, I understand they are working to get approval for their exhaust particulate control system. If that flies, then maybe we could see a nice turbo diesel Mercedes again. That would be worth looking at!

Mercedes "re-introduced" the E Class sedan with diesel in 2005 to the US. This year, they introduced the new generation Bluetec diesel (ULSD) in the E and offer the CDI in the ML, GL, and R class vehicles in the US. http://www.mbusa.com/campaigns/alternative-fuels/index.do

I stand corrected! I have a friend that I will send this link to. He has the itch to buy a new car, and just test drove a Corvette. He really liked it. I suggested a Mercedes diesel, as he also likes diesels. but did not know they were already available. I know he went to the only local Mercedes dealer, and left in disgust at their salesmen. Possibly he needs to go back and try again.

So now that I have installed two new starter bolts, and I am back up ad running, I should take him for a cruise and 'have a chat'. There, back on topic! :grin:

 

[Skip]

Sorry for trashing the image. After 20 years in the Army, having to fix my own HMMWV in some miserable places, I don't mind turning wrenches. I am not a natural, but I pick things up reasonably well. As to the sport coat, well, I have to wear a coat and tie frequently enough for the job--so I boat in shorts and a t-shirt. We are not too far removed from the projectile puke phase on the part of my youngest son, so the easier the clothes are to clean up, the happier I am.
We were at a Marina a couple weeks ago in a slip adjacent to some folks with another 03 420. An older couple, and I assume their kids were grown and out on their own. The interior of their boat was like a museum. Spotless, and beautiful. Really nicely accessorized.
The inside of our 420 looked like a tornado had just it Toys R Us. Kid stuff everywhere. But we were all having a grand old time and that is what it is all about.
The Potomac was in a really foul mood today. Nasty chop, 2-3' and lots of wind. I did not even have to slow down. We had the tide working with us, so 2100 RPMs got me 25.5 knots. A 260DA saw a good deal to be had and tucked in behind me for about 15 miles upriver. My two year old slept the whole time. Love this boat.

regards
Skip

 

[gerryb]

A 260DA saw a good deal to be had and tucked in behind me for about 15 miles upriver.

I've seen this but never had the gall to do it to someone else with my 280. Don't owners of the larger boats mind when someone follows their path for cleaner water?

 

[comsnark]

I follow in clean water whenever I find it.

The alternative is generally riding someones wake for an extended period. Riding another boats wake is fine if you are on a Jetski. . .but doing it with a sizable boat makes for issues with trim!

 

[JeffM]

I follow in clean water whenever I find it.

I do, too. As long as you're a safe distance back, I don't see why someone would get upset.

Jeff

 

[Gervie]

I have had times when the morning fog made the going difficult if you don't have radar. Smaller boats pull into the wake and it is not a problem. I look at it as helping if you can.