Can't crank engine over

[Dave M.]

My boat is dead in the water tonight. It failed to start while anchored late this afternoon. Maybe someone can give me some clues of what to look for.

First, my battery voltage is up over 12 volts, and I have no indication that it is low.

When I try and crank the engine over, the starter motor spins, but does not engage the flywheel. It sounds like it is spinning reasonably fast, so I think I am getting proper voltage to it.

But I don't know if these starters use gearing on the starter motor to kick out the gears to engage the flywheel, or whether that is done with an electrical solenoid. This problem never was intermittent, it worked fine until it died.

I was suspicious that I might have a broken flywheel tooth, and it just happened to stop there. I did not have tools along to grab onto the front of the engine and turn it from there, so I put it in reverse, and stepped on the prop and spun it part of a turn. I believe, but am not positive, that I did turn the engine a few degrees that way. That should have fixed it if I had a broken flywheel tooth.

Now I am thinking that the solenoid maybe does two things. First, it applies power through heavy contacts to spin the starter motor. But maybe it also operates a shaft that moves a yoke that pivots at a point between the solenoid and the starter shaft. And the yoke pushes the gear out to engage the flywheel.

I did not have time to do much troubleshooting this evening. I mainly had to concern myself with securing the boat for the night, before darkness took over.

Now I am thinking that when I hit the starter, the motor spins, but the action is too quiet. I do not hear the initial impact sound that I suspect is the solenoid kicking the gear out into the flywheel.

And assuming I have to change the solenoid or the whole starter, is that something that can be done on the water? Getting a tow may not be easy on a weekday. No commercial towing here. Might catch a fisherman or something. But it is easy to drive to where the boat is, and it is calm, secure water which would enable repair on the water if that is possible. That's another thing I did not have time to take a look at.

I do have a remote starter on board, and I used it just a few days ago to check compression when I replaced the spark plugs. Did not have time tonight to see if using it would crank the engine.

Any help appreciated!

 

[midway]

I would say one of two things, solenoid not pulling in or drive slipping, more than likely the drive. Flywheel teeth would be a grinding noise, can also happen with bad drive. To try and get started keep bumping the starter and maybe it will kick in and turn the engine.

 

[PlayDate]

Dave,

If all you hear is the whirring sound of the starter and not a pronounced clicking, it most likely is the solenoid. The "old school" way to get home is to rap it with a hammer a few times. That will usually be enough to get it to engage. You can use your remote starter (key off) to really check what the problem is by being a lot closer to it.

Depending on access, that is a job which can easily be done on the water.

1) Switch dc power off to the engine. remove battery and solenoid wires from starter.

2) Remove the two bolts holding the starter to the engine.

3) R&R starter.

4) Switch dc power on.


Before you do that just reconfirm that the starter motor is spinning but not engaging. Sometimes (if the motor is not spinning) it is just the shift interlock or a poor connection which is really frustrating.

Good luck!

-John

 

[Dave M.]

John, thanks for your quick reply.

I had been doing work on the boat. I replaced the coolant, and drained as much sand as possible out the drain holes at the bottom of the block. I think I got most of it now. I converted the boat to FWC two years ago.

I also removed the combined fuel/water pump, flushed out the old gasoline contaminated oil in the fuel pump housing, refilled and put it back. Also removed all the plugs, checked compression, put in new plugs. Also changed the engine oil, filter, and fuel filter.

So I was out basically cleaning up, checking for leaks, ect. I have all the engine covers off so I can see in there, so can also hear the starter whir as it runs. I am pretty sure it is spinning, but I don't recall hearing the solenoid kick. But this is trying to remember after the fact, as yesterday was one of those busy zoo days where everything goes wrong with everybody. Today I have time to calmly work on it.

A life of experience working on things electronic tells the proper troubleshooting procedure is; 1) find out who worked on it last 2) figure out what they did to break it.

I worked on it last, but I can't think of anything I did to break it unless it was to move a wire on the solenoid, causing a poor connection. I need to check that out.

I did try rapping on it a bit with a wrench, did not have a hammer. But I did not get too aggressive with that. I did not know where, and how hard to hit it, At the time I did not know if it operated by using a solenoid to engage, or whether it used the start-up of the start motor to spin the starter gear down the shaft into the flywheel. Not I know it is fhe former. But I will do as you suggest. Getting a replacement starter could be the hardest part, I may not be able to get one locally.

 

[Turtlesboat]

A wack on the starter has worked for me on my jeep in the past. Also taking it off and dropping it on the ground worked once too.

 

[Dave M.]

Also taking it off and dropping it on the ground worked once too.

Good idea. I think I will take it off and drop it overboard and see if that helps! :grin: :smt043 :grin:

OK, I am headed off to town to get a good flourescent lamp for my trouble light, a 9V battery for my CO detector, then off the the boat with a starter repair hammer. The regular incandescent lamps always break their filaments if the lamp bumps something when I am using it in the boat.

 

[PlayDate]

Dave,

Good to see you haven't lost your sense of humor. :wink: You should be able to get it fixed locally. The 7.4 is basically a big block V8 454. The difference between a marine starter and an automotive starter is the required spark arrestor screen on the vent (and of course the markup). The solenoid is the same on both units.

I would take your remote starter with you and test that first. That way you will know for sure that the starter is indeed spinning and the bendix gear is not entering the flywheel. Double check the ground wire for the engine and the starter electrical connections.


I had one of mine rebuilt last year for $145.

Good luck,

-John

 

[Dave M.]

Well, I now have the problem identified. The outer bolt that holds the starter to the block has broken off at about the surface of the block. I found the bolt laying under the engine this morning. This had allowed the starter to pivot out of the housing enough that it would not engage.

I am fairly sure that I can now start the engine by tightening the remaining bolt, and blocking the starter body from rotating towards the engine block. I tried that with a momentary hit of the remote starter button, and it did crank the engine. Now I think I can go back with the trailer and retrieve the boat.

Then the real sticky issue is going to be how to get the broken off bolt end out of the block without pulling the engine. A local starter dealer told me that it may be possible to rotate the bolt end out using a pick, but chances are not real high with that one. :huh:

 

[SkipBarnes]

Then the real sticky issue is going to be how to get the broken off bolt end out of the block without pulling the engine. A local starter dealer told me that it may be possible to rotate the bolt end out using a pick, but chances are not real high with that one. :huh:

Don't give up hope. Chances are actually pretty good that you can back that pup out if you can reach it. If not, a drill and an easy out will do it. Just be careful not to drop it.

 

[Dave M.]

Skip, the access to the sides of the engine in the 270 really are quite good. And if I drop it, I can reach it. I can clean everywhere under the engine, on the bilge floor. Seeing up under there is the real problem. On that side of the engine, I will probably need to move out of the way the inlet water hose that goes to the water pump, but that is easy. And some spark plugs wires will need to be moved up out of the way. So maybe there is hope! Going out now to see if I can bring her home, and I am quite confident of that. Will have to walk a mile and a half from where the boat is now to the dock, but I need that exercise. :thumbsup:

 

[PlayDate]

That's a weird one....when you get a chance look at the snapped off bolt head and check how many grade marks it has on it. That will give you a pretty good idea what you are going to be drilling into. The bolts only hold the starter in place....the casing takes the brunt of the load.


Worst case is the easy out doesn't work and you have to drill and tap it for a larger bolt or a helicoil. I would vote for a larger bolt if it comes to that. There is plenty of metal to work with on the block.

At least you can get her home.

-John

 

[Skip]

Dave,
I post this only to remind you that we are a band of brothers here in DIY starter repair purgatory.

I sheared two teeth off of the starter on my starboard main. I know this now that the starter has been replaced (new starter for a Cummins 8.3M3 450= $1,000; I went for the remanufactured starter) At any rate, on the very same morning that an underwater exhaust mounting bolt sheared off in my hand, with the attendant trickle of water into the bilge 75 miles downriver from my home port, and 80 miles from a travelift -equipped Marina that would do an emergency haul, my starboard main would not start. Starter would not engage. I had to remove the cover from the front of the engine, grip the big center pulley with both hands, and turn that big inline six diesel enough to get the starter to free itself. It is amazing what adrenaline can do. I turned the pulley 1/4 turn, heard the starter click, put the cover back on, and cranked her up. Oh, sweet Cummins music.
I truly feel your pain on this one.
Good luck with it.
Skip

 

[Dave M.]

That's a weird one....when you get a chance look at the snapped off bolt head and check how many grade marks it has on it. That will give you a pretty good idea what you are going to be drilling into. The bolts only hold the starter in place....the casing takes the brunt of the load.

Good idea to check the bolt marking, I had not thought of that. The guy the owns the local starter/battery/alternator shop says he has seen some break off the bolt on the Chevy's.

I did see that the starter is keyed as it fits into the block, so I knew if you could just hold it in place, the keying would keep it from turning. That worked out well. I found a screwdriver with a handle that was a perfect fit between the starter and the block. Cranked up just fine, got her home.

Worst case is the easy out doesn't work and you have to drill and tap it for a larger bolt or a helicoil. I would vote for a larger bolt if it comes to that. There is plenty of metal to work with on the block.

At least you can get her home.

-John

My wifes uncle and aunt are dropping in tomorrow, will stay the night, so I probably won't get much time to look at it now until saturday.

 

[Dave M.]

Dave,
I post this only to remind you that we are a band of brothers here in DIY starter repair purgatory.

...
I had to remove the cover from the front of the engine, grip the big center pulley with both hands, and turn that big inline six diesel enough to get the starter to free itself. It is amazing what adrenaline can do.
Skip

That is amazing! The Cummins ISB, just a 5.9L, in my PU shakes the truck on the last couple of compression strokes when it is shut down. I can't imagine turning it by hand!

Once I figured out what the problem was and realized I would be able to start it and get back under power, the rest of the day was quite nice. Spent some time on the boat putting things away, some cleaning, then brought her back. Its nice to be out on a sunny day, no wind, no phone, no one can call wanting me to fix their problems. I could just work on my own problems, which seems a rare event.

 

[SkipBarnes]

Worst case is the easy out doesn't work and you have to drill and tap it for a larger bolt or a helicoil. I would vote for a larger bolt if it comes to that. There is plenty of metal to work with on the block.
-John

In my experience, if the bolt sheared and didn't fail while you were removing it (i..e., stuck due to corrosion) it should come out very easily. It is possible that there could be some corrosion in the threads but it's my bet that even an easy out will be overkill, just a convenience if it's hard to reach.

Stihlbolts would be our resident fastener expert...

 

[Dave M.]

What you are guys are saying is beginning to sink in. The bolt sheared off cleanly. The reason it did that maybe was because I did not torque it periodically, and it worked loose a bit. That gave the starter the opportunity to try and shear it with repeated tries. It was finally successful. I need to go get the bolt, look again, and post a picture. But maybe it is not a hard steel bolt. I suspect it is a material I don't know the name of that is specifically designed to resist corrosion (but not stainless?).

Before I started the engine with the screwdriver wedged in there to hold the starter in place, I did tighten the bolt on the other side. I did not have to break it free to tighten it, I just tightened it an eight of a turn or less.

There is not corrosion evident in anything I have seen there. So I guess it makes sense the the one I need to extract is already loose. If it weren't, it wouldn't have broken.

There may be a need for a bi-annual torque check on these bolts. I don't know the proper torque, it may be in the Clymers manual I have.

 

[midway]

Get a reversible angle head drill motor and a reverse drill bit. Quite often the reverse drill bit will catch the bolt and spin it out while drilling.

 

[Dave M.]

Here are some photos of what the broken bolt looks like.

I don't know what the significance of the bronze color is.

Wife's relatives coming this evening. That means all the furniture has to be moved to a different location before they get here. Probably only women can understand this need. :huh:

Well, anyway, now maybe I have a requirement to buy a nice, small, reversible right angle drill. I like the non-negotiable aspect of "requirements"! :thumbsup:

 

[PlayDate]

Dave,

Good luck with the furniture and the relatives. Why women want to rearrange things before relatives show up is a great mystery. My guess is that it has more to do with them wanting to keep us busy rather than "Honey, I'll be on my boat....call me after they get here!"

The bolt as you probably already know is:
Grade 5
Medium Carbon Steel, Quenched and Tempered

The Bronze coating is a corrosion inhibitor.

Depending on the access, you might get lucky on this and the threaded part might unscrew without having to drill. It looks like the bolt might have been loose to begin with given the wear marks on the knurled portion. Great pics BTW.

-John

 

[Dave M.]

Dave,

The bolt as you probably already know is:
Grade 5 Medium Carbon Steel, Quenched and Tempered

The Bronze coating is a corrosion inhibitor.

Depending on the access, you might get lucky on this and the threaded part might unscrew without having to drill. It looks like the bolt might have been loose to begin with given the wear marks on the knurled portion. Great pics BTW.

-John

John, thanks again. I did not know what the coating was. I've seen it before for things that needed corrosion protection, but did not know how it was done.

Good catch about the wear marks, I did not catch that. Guess I violated my own Rule #1, which says "If you don't do anything else, at least open your eyes and look". Almost always a problem will be trying to tell you about itself, but it is difficult to train yourself to listen to what it is saying.

I'm not going to have a chance to look at it anymore until the relatives leave tomorrow. But if need be, I can remove the exhaust manifold on that side, which should give good access. And I have a nice mirror to use for viewing, it I can just get stuff out of the way. That side has always needed to be tidied up a bit anyway. Too many of those ties and wraps that act like a rose thorn when you try and stick you hand in there!