Calling all canvas people....Let's have an honest discussion....

Boat Guy said:
I'm not worried about it, I'm just not going to pay it....It is similar to dealership book rates...Just pay what we tell you and be happy...But that just seems to be the nature of things today...Like someone said, they charge it, because they can get it...Perhaps...

If you can't justify the price in time and materials then you're not being honest...If you say your rate is $50/hr or $90/hr, then it needs to mean something.

@techmitch already answered buddy....I said, he told me he could get the materials way less than me....I said ok, use my number of $2k...He already said he was making money on the material end. But he also said the days of doubling materials costs were over, but since he basically double the est price over the calculate time and materials costs, I'm scratching my head at the fuzzy math.
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No problem. Did I miss Quint's reply?
 
As s tile and stone Mason I charge by the sq ft and lineal foot differing amounts based on size and format of materials and some flat rates for items like shower bases. There are days I make fuck all per hr and days I make 300 per hr. It all works out in the end but attitude and entitled always pay more. Many self employed people I know have a sliding scale that allow them to discount for those truly in need by charging the better off a higher rate it's our way of equalization and being affordable to those in need who would otherwise be sol in this world.. dude with an indoor pool and 6 cans pays s bit more so the single parent with a leaky tub surround can get helped st cost . If that makes sense to people they're someone I'll do business with if not oh well shop for the low bid and see what you get
 
Handsome Transom said:
As s tile and stone Mason I charge by the sq ft and lineal foot differing amounts based on size and format of materials and some flat rates for items like shower bases. There are days I make fuck all per hr and days I make 300 per hr. It all works out in the end but attitude and entitled always pay more. Many self employed people I know have a sliding scale that allow them to discount for those truly in need by charging the better off a higher rate it's our way of equalization and being affordable to those in need who would otherwise be sol in this world.. dude with an indoor pool and 6 cans pays s bit more so the single parent with a leaky tub surround can get helped st cost . If that makes sense to people they're someone I'll do business with if not oh well shop for the low bid and see what you get
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I don't think the OP is just interested in the low bid. What I'm reading is he interested in a fair job at a fair price.

Unfortunately in boating as in other hobbies there are people who feel if you have the money to buy the boat, then you damn well have the money to pay out the nose for their service. I, as well as many others, have the money to own a boat because I was smart with my money. And I don't pay someone "just because".

In my local area we have several canvas shops who charge premium prices for substandard work.
 
CaptRonn said:
...In my local area we have several canvas shops who charge premium prices for substandard work...
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That is a shame. Just remember that because you paid the most does not mean you will get the best.

-Kevin
 
Boat Guy said:
@CaptRonn, correct....It's interesting to me that a guy that just wants a fair deal gets shrugged off as wanting a low bidder or someone not qualified to do the job...I feel I'm getting a label as a cheapskate...So be it....I come from a diff. generation....Honest days work / honest days pay....
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Not at all what I mean , labeling it is just that as in any business there are costs the consumer does not readily recognize and a business needs to make money beyond the wagesnpsid to the person doing the labour. Rent equipment, liability insurance, workers insurance social security costs of training employees etc etc. Its a lot more difficult to figure than just wage x hours plus materials. The phone I'm typing this on costs 18 dollars to produce but I paid in excess of 500 to purchase it . Do I dislike that math you bet but I still paid it because it performs the function i want and was the cost i could bear . That's just basic freemarket economy and it beats the hell out if communism
 
KevinC said:
I believe you are referring to "rubber spray welt". It is commonly used around a windshield edge so that when the canvas snaps down it compresses the tube to create a seal. Also used on the outside of visors to create a seal against the bimini when they are zipped in. It can be used anywhere that attaches to help create a barrier seal. Think of it as weatherstripping.

View attachment 72405

-Kevin
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I didn't get a pic tonight but thats what mine looks like
 
I’ve found that canvas work is sometimes more reasonable in the off season. These guys can get pretty slammed during the season and most people want their jobs done ASAP.
You might get a better price if you can hold off and have it done in the winter.
 
Handsome Transom said:
Not at all what I mean , labeling it is just that as in any business there are costs the consumer does not readily recognize and a business needs to make money beyond the wagesnpsid to the person doing the labour. Rent equipment, liability insurance, workers insurance social security costs of training employees etc etc. Its a lot more difficult to figure than just wage x hours plus materials. The phone I'm typing this on costs 18 dollars to produce but I paid in excess of 500 to purchase it . Do I dislike that math you bet but I still paid it because it performs the function i want and was the cost i could bear . That's just basic freemarket economy and it beats the hell out if communism
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When you buy your phone, the company doesn't sell it by stating "Material Charges- $18.00, Labor to assemble- $400, Transportation- $10, Packaging- $8..........".

When a canvas maker openly tells the customer the price of the materials, and the estimate of hours to complete the job and the hourly labor cost, then adds in a mysterious 100% markup, unexplained, then that is just plain bad business.

The canvas shop could just do like anything else, just put out a one size fits all price. Camper top, 40 foot Sea Ray? $11,000 please. That's fine if that's what the shop owner wants, then let the customer decide.

Fortunately I'm not held hostage by the canvas shops and their tactics.
 
CaptRonn said:
When you buy your phone, the company doesn't sell it by stating "Material Charges- $18.00, Labor to assemble- $400, Transportation- $10, Packaging- $8..........".

When a canvas maker openly tells the customer the price of the materials, and the estimate of hours to complete the job and the hourly labor cost, then adds in a mysterious 100% markup, unexplained, then that is just plain bad business.

The canvas shop could just do like anything else, just put out a one size fits all price. Camper top, 40 foot Sea Ray? $11,000 please. That's fine if that's what the shop owner wants, then let the customer decide.

Fortunately I'm not held hostage by the canvas shops and their tactics.
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Well you r the customer and you ultimately decide so that's that. Have fun I'm going boating
 
Carpediem44DB said:
I’m using Sunbrella fabric with a 40 mil clear vinyl the brand has escaped me at the moment and 1 inch binding for the edges. The thread is poly 92 great UV resistant and sews nicely. I bought the Ptfe thread in clear but I don’t like the looks of the finished stitch on the dark blue canvas so I use black which nearly disappears. Still learning and seeking guidance wherever I can. Some is actually useful :cool:
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Boat Guy, the clear vinyl I bought is Crystal Clear20/20 40 GA
54”x110” ran me $135 per sheet. I bought six sheets to replace my bridge enclosure windows which was my first endeavor at sewing. The job came out well and I chose the Crystal Clear 20/20 on price point and local availability. Since this was my learning curve project I did not want to risk more expensive materials. Next year I’m redesigning the entire structure expanding the rear canvas top and then I will be installing either Strataglass or Markalon to get rid of the inevitable waviness in the glass. I don’t like that the Markalon fails relatively prematurely but I figure I’m saving enough on labor that I won’t mind replacing it in four years. By then the plan is to move to either a 52 or a pilot house of some kind.
Carpe Diem
 
Boat Guy said:
@CaptRonn, correct....It's interesting to me that a guy that just wants a fair deal gets shrugged off as wanting a low bidder or someone not qualified to do the job...I feel I'm getting a label as a cheapskate...So be it....I come from a diff. generation....Honest days work / honest days pay....
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I don't see you being the cheapskate, I agree with you all the way. The guy tells you he can do the job in 35hrs @90per and material under 2K...then doubles the price. Somethings wrong with that guys head I'd say.

A friend of mine last summer got a quote on some work around his house. The work was satisfactory, the guy stopped at the house to get paid and handed over the bill. The bill was a couple thousand bucks more than the quote. My friend asked why the increase, the answer he was given was(he actually said this) 'when I saw your car I figured you could afford it'.

WTF is wrong with people.
 
I talked with my electrician the other day about a few projects. He asks if I needed a cost proposal or time and materials. I told him I trust him and time and materials will be fine. He says good that will save you some money. If he does a proposal, he's got to cover all the variables. With Time and material we tell his guys what we want and they just do it.
 
I will wade back in for a bit with a confession....I hate figuring quotes! I belong to a couple of very active private Facebook groups for canvas and upholstery shops and a very common theme is: "What are you charging for this, what are you charging for that? Responses vary greatly and a lot of it is location driven (Boston harbor vs Rural Kentucky). Also, the really good shops with a reputation for excellent work, get more (duh).
I have spreadsheets with pricing, hourly guides for different projects, an expensive software program that figures pricing based on your input of materials and hours, dozens of saved screen shots with other shops prices, etc, etc. .....drives me nuts. I have mostly landed with "How many hours will this take me?" plus materials cost = quote. Still a moving target for me.
The biggest difference in materials prices is isenglass or clear vinyl ("clears" the Aussies say).
Huge difference in price between rolled, strata, and polycarbonate. There are plenty of fly by night guys looking for a quick buck. As has been stated, ask for references and look at prior work the shop has done!
I am really good at returning calls, showing up on time, doing what I say I will do, fussing over projects and details, constantly trying to get to the next level in skill and design.
This has worked really well for me as 99% of my work is referrals.
Bottom line: canvas pricing is all over the map, established shops doing top notch work are expensive. Some will pay it, others will seek alternatives.
 
Quint4 said:
I will wade back in for a bit with a confession....I hate figuring quotes!......
Bottom line: canvas pricing is all over the map, established shops doing top notch work are expensive. Some will pay it, others will seek alternatives.
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Quint, I really appreciate you staying engaged....Truth is, without your input the conversation would be limited...I believe you when you say you have private groups on FB and pricing is all over the board...If you had the chance to read through my posts, you would see that I'm simply looking for an honest, reasonable, price...It seems as unrealistic as finding unobtanium, and that's disappointing. Do you think I'm being unreasonable expecting the job to come in at $3.5k (40-50hrs) in labor and $2k in material using quality material? Sunbrella and Strata 40 for example?

I am looking into getting the equipment and seeing first hand.
 
I doubt you will find an established shop, doing top shelf work, to do it for less than 8K. You are not being unreasonable it's just that the top shops, commanding big money, have 4-6 week lead times right now. Sums it up.
 
Boat Guy said:
Quint, I really appreciate you staying engaged....Truth is, without your input the conversation would be limited...I believe you when you say you have private groups on FB and pricing is all over the board...If you had the chance to read through my posts, you would see that I'm simply looking for an honest, reasonable, price...It seems as unrealistic as finding unobtanium, and that's disappointing. Do you think I'm being unreasonable expecting the job to come in at $3.5k (40-50hrs) in labor and $2k in material using quality material? Sunbrella and Strata 40 for example?

I am looking into getting the equipment and seeing first hand.
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But a walking foot machine (about $500), watch the Sailtite videos, get some scrap material and practice. When you feel you’re ready, start on a section at a time. Prep is everything, make good templates, sew, fit, adjust, sew and fit.

You’ll have the satisfaction of a job done the way you want it. It’s not difficult, just tedious. You’ll have the advantage of doing multiple fittings which most shops won’t do.

There is nothing magic about doing canvas work. It will make a great project.
 
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