Calling all canvas people....Let's have an honest discussion....

[Boat Guy]

Ok, in all seriousness, why are canvas tops so expensive and what are your thoughts on material costs and likelihood of DIY?

Take a look at my 400DA as an example and guess what you think it would cost to make a camper canvas...material cost / time vs canvas shop.

I really like the functionality and how my top was made...Roll downs and bug screens...A total of 5 panels in the front /sides and 8 panels in the back...

My guess is $1500 in top quality materials. Mostly for 40mil clear vinyl.

 

[PlayDate]

Now add $50-100 per hour for labor to shape, stitch and finish the canvas. I do my own canvas repairs (zippers, fasteners and replacement vinyl) with the Sailrite machine I own (regular sewing machines won't sew canvas) and that will teach you that the folks that do it for a living are real craftsman.

 

[Stee6043]

Using Sailrite pricing for materials I created a materials list for my 400DA
slant back setup over winter. It was $2,500 in materials +/-. That includes Sunbrella material, isenglass, zippers and all fasteners. Plus some extra of everything for yield.

After sewing a helm cover and floor runners for my boat this year I’m confident in saying the canvas job is nowhere near DIY. At least not for me. Unless you’d be okay with saggy panels, not so straight seams and a couple hundred hours of labor to get there.

It’s really no different than asking if kitchen cabinets are DIY. Sure we can all build boxes to put our coffee cans in. But that’s not going to fly for most of the first mates we all boat with.

 

[NotHerDecision]

Honestly I think the main thing you’re missing is labor. 100.00/hr is the going rate for a specialty marine shop. Canvas is very time consuming with multiple trips to the boat for templating then fitting then adjusting. It’s just labor intensive.

 

[CaptRonn]

Ok, in all seriousness, why are canvas tops so expensive and what are your thoughts on material costs and likelihood of DIY?

Take a look at my 400DA as an example and guess what you think it would cost to make a camper canvas...material cost / time vs canvas shop.

I really like the functionality and how my top was made...Roll downs and bug screens...A total of 5 panels in the front /sides and 8 panels in the back...

My guess is $1500 in top quality materials. Mostly for 40mil clear vinyl.

View attachment 71972

Your estimate is very close.

I do my own canvas work. When I had my 400EC I built the camper back and enclosure, and put new isinglass in the front. My cost in materials were just at $1000. The local "expert shop" quoted me $5,000 just to make the camper back bimini and enclosure.

Canvas work is not hard, just tedious and time consuming. Sailrite provides many Youtube videos on building different parts and they have all of the materials at reasonable prices.

I never sewed until I did my first canvas project. I bought a walking foot machine, took scrap material and practiced. When I was ready I began sewing. Like a good paint job, much of the work is in preparation. I made templates, did adjustments and took my time. When I was done I had an enclosure that looked and fit better than was offered by the "professional".

Walking foot sewing machines can be had for $500 or so. I have an Omega which is a chinese machine, and so far it's flawless and easy to use.

BTW, I kept track of the time to build my enclosure and replace the front isenglass. I had 40 hours total involved. And I'm not a professional, who should be able to do it more quickly.

 

[CaptRonn]

Honestly I think the main thing you’re missing is labor. 100.00/hr is the going rate for a specialty marine shop. Canvas is very time consuming with multiple trips to the boat for templating then fitting then adjusting. It’s just labor intensive.

Their labor is not worth $100/hour. Most shops use cheap labor to do the sewing and fabricating. I've walked the docks here locally and looked at the "professional" jobs and they are not even close. Most of these shops are like any business, get it in and out quickly and cheaply to maximize profits.

It's a supply and demand thing as well, which is another reason they crank up the high rates. For some it may be worth paying high dollars for a mediocre if not below standard product. Not me.

 

[Boat Guy]

@Quint4 I moved your post over here so I wouldn't hijack the other hardtop thread...

A full enclosure on a 400DA with roll ups etc. would take me 60 hrs plus hours to do right. ..... Plumbers, auto mechanics, HVAC techs are $100 and hour no questions asked. People shell out $1500 annually for a buff and wax. ...... I am not staying in the game for $20 bucks an hour. That said, many of you are smart guys with more than average DIY skills ........ I will also say it can be a real PIA....LOL! (....beware the "shaped" pieces under tension....ha ha).

Interesting thoughts guys.... I will say Quint, I do ask questions re:HVAC techs etc...And I don't shell out $1500/yr for buff&wax...Perhaps if I did, the price for canvas wouldn't seem excessive...I understand the need to make a living, hence the reason for the thread and my wanting to understand better what goes into it. I know labor rates vary per area, but I would think while $20/hr might not keep people "in the game", $100/hr est. might be on the high side. Care to take a stab at the materials costs? -- I will say, I wish you were closer to Annapolis.... Also, I watched a sailrite video and instead of cutting the glass /vinyl and making a canvas edge around it, they cut the whole pattern panel out of canvas, positioned the vinyl on top where it was to be situated and then cutout the entire center of the canvas to expose the vinyl...Seems like a lot of waste to do it that way. I'm guessing that's the industry std. method?

@PlayDate - I think $40-50 hr for someone with some skill is prob. right in our area...Perhaps I'm wrong...With Quint's 60hr est. that's $2400-$3k in labor plus materials...With close to the best materials add $1500-$2k costs and somewhere around $5k all in...

@Stee6043 - Care to share your spreadsheet? I'd really like to know how you arrived at the est...BTW - I would not do a slant back - The camper top with full back area allows people to sit in the back seating and is far more comfortable and versatile, IMO... I like how they designed the canvas on my boat....I'm not sure if it was original, but I'm guessing not. All I know is, I really wouldn't change a thing other than adding a smile in the center front windshield panel (which I did)... Frankly, I would simply re-stich and re=glass what I have I like it so much, but I'm thinking of a color change.

Curious, anyone in the Annapolis area with experience?

 

[Boat Guy]

Your estimate is very close.

I do my own canvas work. When I had my 400EC I built the camper back and enclosure, and put new isinglass in the front. My cost in materials were just at $1000. The local "expert shop" quoted me $5,000 just to make the camper back bimini and enclosure.
........
BTW, I kept track of the time to build my enclosure and replace the front isenglass. I had 40 hours total involved. And I'm not a professional, who should be able to do it more quickly.

Now, that's what I'm talking about....You and I are seeing similar things...I've had dock neighbors and friends tell me how unhappy and how ill fitting the canvas is on their vessels...I've had people tell who not to use more than who to use...It's got me so concerned shelling out $5k+ for work I'm not happy with...Frankly, because I really like my top now....

The joke is, I can't even get someone to come to the boat to look it over and give an est...If I didn't know better, I'd think I was dealing with millennials...haha...Just to tell you where I'm at. I got an $8500 est. to do my camper top and when I looked carefully at the quote, it only had three panels for the back. One each side and the back...Seriously? My boat has eight panels in the back with zip up smilies and bug screens. How much do you think the est. would go up if they actually did a good job and included these things? I guarantee they wouldn't simply put three panels on the back of their boat. How do you open the door and go in? Are you supposed to roll up the entire back canvas?

It's not "just" the money...They claim to be professional yet don't even care to come out and sneak in a bs over-priced for what it is est. only to up-charge for making it right.

It's enough to make you want to do it right / the way you want it / yourself....

I would happily pay a good seamstress $2k in labor and supply the materials to get the job I want...

 

[Stee6043]

@Stee6043 - Care to share your spreadsheet? I'd really like to know how you arrived at the est...BTW - I would not do a slant back - The camper top with full back area allows people to sit in the back seating and is far more comfortable and versatile, IMO... I like how they designed the canvas on my boat....I'm not sure if it was original, but I'm guessing not. All I know is, I really wouldn't change a thing other than adding a smile in the center front windshield panel (which I did)... Frankly, I would simply re-stich and re=glass what I have I like it so much, but I'm thinking of a color change.

Here you go, Boat Guy:

 

[Stee6043]

Here you go, Boat Guy:

View attachment 71986

And for the record I've put 50% down on having it done professionally this coming winter. I'll pay a "whole lot more" but I really want the finished product to look amazing. I bought the professional sewing machine over winter and will plan to keep using it. The Sailrite machine is awesome. But having an exterior product...it's just too much work, too much skill required for me to chance it.

I probably spent 5-6 hours making my helm cover. It's literally 2 pieces of Sunbrella seamed down the middle, hemmed on the edges with a few snaps installed. There's no way I could do a full set of canvas in under 100 hours.

 

[CaptRonn]

Now, that's what I'm talking about....You and I are seeing similar things...I've had dock neighbors and friends tell me how unhappy and how ill fitting the canvas is on their vessels...I've had people tell who not to use more than who to use...It's got me so concerned shelling out $5k+ for work I'm not happy with...Frankly, because I really like my top now....

The joke is, I can't even get someone to come to the boat to look it over and give an est...If I didn't know better, I'd think I was dealing with millennials...haha...Just to tell you where I'm at. I got an $8500 est. to do my camper top and when I looked carefully at the quote, it only had three panels for the back. One each side and the back...Seriously? My boat has eight panels in the back with zip up smilies and bug screens. How much do you think the est. would go up if they actually did a good job and included these things? I guarantee they wouldn't simply put three panels on the back of their boat. How do you open the door and go in? Are you supposed to roll up the entire back canvas?

It's not "just" the money...They claim to be professional yet don't even care to come out and sneak in a bs over-priced for what it is est. only to up-charge for making it right.

It's enough to make you want to do it right / the way you want it / yourself....

I would happily pay a good seamstress $2k in labor and supply the materials to get the job I want...

I watched a recent job on a express boat on my pier. The owner wanted a new camper back and new isenglass on his front panels. He told me what he paid, and it was exorbitant. The job was shoddy, mismatched material, no straight seems and it looks like the seamstress wadded up the isenglass as she sewed it. She left big scratches everywhere. A total disaster.

When I got my high quote on the camper top, the shop was supposedly one of the best shops around. She made me wait at my boat for a couple of hours past our appointment (her shop was a mile down the street) and she treated me like she was doing me a favor by showing up.

And this same shop? They did the canvas on a friends 340EC. Installing a snap on the windshield the installer broke the glass by drilling in the wrong spot. A total amateur mistake, and they tried to get out of paying for the replacement.

 

[techmitch]

Now, that's what I'm talking about....You and I are seeing similar things...I've had dock neighbors and friends tell me how unhappy and how ill fitting the canvas is on their vessels...I've had people tell who not to use more than who to use...It's got me so concerned shelling out $5k+ for work I'm not happy with...Frankly, because I really like my top now....

The joke is, I can't even get someone to come to the boat to look it over and give an est...If I didn't know better, I'd think I was dealing with millennials...haha...Just to tell you where I'm at. I got an $8500 est. to do my camper top and when I looked carefully at the quote, it only had three panels for the back. One each side and the back...Seriously? My boat has eight panels in the back with zip up smilies and bug screens. How much do you think the est. would go up if they actually did a good job and included these things? I guarantee they wouldn't simply put three panels on the back of their boat. How do you open the door and go in? Are you supposed to roll up the entire back canvas?

It's not "just" the money...They claim to be professional yet don't even care to come out and sneak in a bs over-priced for what it is est. only to up-charge for making it right.

It's enough to make you want to do it right / the way you want it / yourself....

I would happily pay a good seamstress $2k in labor and supply the materials to get the job I want...

Let me get this right. You only want to pay for 20 hrs. labor AND you want to bring your own materials?
Most business models in the service industry are predicated on profit from parts and materials along with covering overhead on the hourly rate end.

 

[KevinC]

It's not about the hourly cost but more about the total job cost and it's value to you. Everyone judges things differently and assigns different values. Some people are happy with quick cheap jobs that basically serve the purpose - others want a superior job that is more like artwork than form and function. Everyone finds their proper median. That's why there are so many car and boat models.

As far a treating customers poorly, doing shoddy work or not standing behind their products eventually these businesses will either change or disappear when no one wants to use them anymore. I am also pretty sure those shops that charge a very high labor rate are not necessarily hard up for work or they will not be long for the world.

I always felt that the value of customer service starts when there is a problem (not when things go as planned) and a company should be judged on how it handles the issue (or doesn't). I have lost money on jobs and even provided additional products or services after the sale when I felt we made a mistake or the miscommunication was on our side.

As most of you know my company Cove Marine represents Great Lakes Boat Top company here on CSR. Why do we work with them? They provide a quality product, uniform and repeatable designs, reasonable pricing and stand behind what they do. While I can make my own canvas I have used them for my own boat. Did it cost me more? Sure did compared to materials - but not necessarily so when I take my labor into consideration - not to mention if there is a production problem they will replace it for me.

-Kevin

 

[Carpediem44DB]

Great discussion all, I’ll tell you the main reason I’m doing it myself is over all quality. I can and will do little custom touches such as adding a binding to the inside border of the glass which hides the stitches and really finishes off the job. The fellow owner that just dropped $11,000 on his enclosure used the biggest and most popular shop around and from 20 feet it looks really well done. Look close and know what your looking at and it really looks like crap workmanship to me. Clearly the fabricator has a crew of producers that are under pressure to get so much done in a days work and don’t have the luxury to slow down and stitch straight or make cosmetic corrections. If I’m paying good $$ for a job I want it done as well as possible. If I do it myself and it isn’t perfect, I know why and I’ll either live with it or redo it until I’m satisfied. Truth known, I’m my own worst critic, when people look at my work they always load praise as to how nice it looks. I know better and I’m sure most don’t see the flaws. Those that do are just too nice to point them out. Either way I just get so much pleasure working on my pride and joy.

 

[El Capitan]

Very interesting thread.

I’m gonna send this to my lawyer and ask him why he charges what he does.

 

[KevinC]

Very interesting thread.

I’m gonna send this to my lawyer and ask him why he charges what he does.

Why would you need a lawyer?
Just look it up your questions on the internet or download your agreements for free ?
I pretty sure that's all that they are doing

DISCLAIMER: For all the lawyers out there - this is a JOKE and NOT LEGAL ADVISE.

-Kevin

 

[KevinC]

View attachment 71988 Great discussion all, I’ll tell you the main reason I’m doing it myself is over all quality. I can and will do little custom touches such as adding a binding to the inside border of the glass which hides the stitches and really finishes off the job. The fellow owner that just dropped $11,000 on his enclosure used the biggest and most popular shop around and from 20 feet it looks really well done. Look close and know what your looking at and it really looks like crap workmanship to me. Clearly the fabricator has a crew of producers that are under pressure to get so much done in a days work and don’t have the luxury to slow down and stitch straight or make cosmetic corrections. If I’m paying good $$ for a job I want it done as well as possible. If I do it myself and it isn’t perfect, I know why and I’ll either live with it or redo it until I’m satisfied. Truth known, I’m my own worst critic, when people look at my work they always load praise as to how nice it looks. I know better and I’m sure most don’t see the flaws. Those that do are just too nice to point them out. Either way I just get so much pleasure working on my pride and joy.

That picture is a disgrace it would only have taken a couple of minutes to properly finish off that zipper at a proper length with a proper stop and why would you leave the start box hanging that long.

-Kevin

 

[Boat Guy]

Your estimate is very close.
.. When I had my 400EC ... I had 40 hours total involved. And I'm not a professional, who should be able to do it more quickly.

.....

I would happily pay a good seamstress $2k in labor and supply the materials to get the job I want...

Let me get this right. You only want to pay for 20 hrs. labor AND you want to bring your own materials?
Most business models in the service industry are predicated on profit from parts and materials along with covering overhead on the hourly rate end.

Mitch, I'm not sure I understand your question. Where am I implying that I want to pay 20hrs labor?... Ronn est. 40hrs in his similar camper top as an amateur. I said $2k labor... What do you think is right? To be clear, I said "I'd like to pay a good seamstress" not a company...

 

[Boat Guy]

Honestly I think the main thing you’re missing is labor. 100.00/hr is the going rate for a specialty marine shop. Canvas is very time consuming with multiple trips to the boat for templating then fitting then adjusting. It’s just labor intensive.

Fair point, and that's what I'm trying to surmise....Without knowing the est. time, it's hard to determine. I'm getting a better sense now, and I agree $100/hr seems to be about the ask rate...I tend to think everything is overpriced, so I know that factors into my logic. I doubt a fair amount of that rate is heading to the seamstress...

 

[Boat Guy]

Very interesting thread.

I’m gonna send this to my lawyer and ask him why he charges what he does.

Perhaps you should if you think he's overcharging....I've done a fair amount of legal work myself and many law firms do tend to overcharge. Though you need to consider the downside or loss when deciding the best course for representation. Sometimes it pays to have good council....other times, not so much....Further, equating potential litigation to sewing doesn't seem like the best analogy, but I understand your point.