Buy American

Mike – Hogwash!!! First, everyone inthe room knows the WWII story so I don't know why you are trying to dazzle us with your knowledge of history. The reality is that things have changed and capital is going to flow to where the cheapest labor can be found. That also means that when you buy those products, your wealth is being transferred. The statements about why don't you buy everything from your own family or state, etc. are also academic hogwash. The reality is that none of that nonsense is even possible. There are very few things that you can buy that are made in America and that is not going to change any day soon. You go ahead and buy all of the cheap Chinese junk manufactured on the backs of people working for slave labor wages that you want. When I have the opportunity to buy products that help our people and our economy,that is what I am going to choose to do. My home is not furnished with cheap Chinese junk and, it is not going to be. As just one example, we needed a sofa table so we purchased a wrought iron base made by a local artisan. The beveled glass top was made by a local glass shop. So, instead of buying several pieces of cheap crap, we chose to use our money to buy one quality piece and the decision helped to employ small business people. You tell me what is wrong with that. Would you rather buy a bunch of crap from China and pay unemployment benefits, etc. to the people that you have put out of work?


We indeed have become an information society. We tell the McDonald's clerk how many cheeseburgers that we want to buy to fatten our kids up so that they can be on medications by the time that they are eight years old. We then stick them in front of the TV so that their little brains can be bombarded with all of the ads for the things that they “must” have in order to be accepted into our society.


You have all kinds of bright ideas about how to make America competitive again which is great, but, the fact is that we cannot compete against slave labor wages. Go ahead and reduce the corporate tax to zero if you want to. How does that help? You said that it is a global economy. Goodyear, for example ,has a lot of their tires manufactured in China for sale in the US and other countries around the world. So, now you reduce their tax to zero so that they can sell their tires cheaper. And so, now you have lost a tax base to help pay the benefits for people that are out of work. And, you have made it less expensive for people in other countries to buy Goodyear tires. So, now Goodyear has more money to build more plants in China so that we can transfer more wealth to China. Great.


I'm not saying that we should be a protectionist society. I'm just saying that when possible, I want to support American jobs whenever I can. There are a whole lot people in this country that cannot find their a$$ with both hands let alone be an IT genius. I would much rather see those people employed than sucking off the government teet. It appears to me that you are just running your mouth to try to make everyone believe that you are some sort of know it all with all of the answers. I agree that there are a lot of government induced issues that should be addressed to help our businesses become more competitive. I, however, don't make the rules. I just try to do the best that I can based on what the reality is. And, that is to try to support my fellow Americans.

Just what is it that you are doing to support business in America?


The reason it is good to look at history is so we are not doomed to repeat past mistakes, many people do not know things like that, I'm glad you do. Many also fail to understand that in the manufacturing vacum we filled for the world, wages were artificially inflated due to that lack of competition. At some point there had to be an equalizing, the function of markets cannot be stopped. Even in the old Soviet Union a free underground market existed to supply what the people needed. You make a presumption of other peoples situations based on your life and surroundings, while some countries do have bad working conditions, most do not, so calling it slave labor because they don;t make what you think they should is wrong.

You blast "Chinese junk" but cheap quality goods are exactly what American consumers demand today. It frustrates me as well because I prefer good quality goods that will last. People today have money for things the rich could not dream of owning 20 years ago. We are richer as a society today than ever. Yes, some are laid off but that is not because of imports, it is poor policies from Washington. Anyone not in manufacturing should be insulted by your baseless bashing of people working in information industries as well as the service folks for your disrespect for their contributions to society.

I hope you bought the right table and made a wise economic decision for your family. That is what the decision should be based on not emotion and how we wish the world to be. I am a big supporter of many businesses that I could get a cheaper price on the items from another source but I make the economic decision to support them as it is in my interes in the long run. For example it would be a good economic decision to by from Jim at BOE for the service even if he is not the cheapest. I go out of my way to buy from my local West Marine so they stay in business locally to serve me later. I also LOVE to buy goods made by or from my fellow Americans, I have great pride in my country as well but as you said "The statements about why don't you buy everything from your own family or state, etc. are also academic hogwash. The reality is that none of that nonsense is even possible." Indeed it is not. As you further said "I'm not saying that we should be a protectionist society." it appears you know the truth , you just don't like it. MM
 
Sorry Fasttoys, but you can save the union song and dance for people who might fall for it. You and Sea Ray 215 are obviously long standing, dues paying union workers. You said so in your post and Sea Ray 215 had to come up with BS that's over 60 years old to justify unions. I agree with him that back in the WWII days they did a good job of providing the tools we needed to win the war. But c'mon, that was 7 decades ago.

Say what you want about the way the Southern lawmakers voted against the bailouts, but they recognized that those foreign car plants you hate so much provided thousands of good paying jobs in their states. They also recognized that those plants were, and probably always will be non-union plants because unions are becoming a thing of the past. I used to live in MI and was around when you union workers went on strike every few years for those huge paycheck and benefit increases. But look what it got you. You've priced yourselves right out of the world car market. Do you see any of the foreign car makers with a Job Bank? Hell no. They're smarter than that.

Drive through Saginaw or Flint or Grand Blanc or Detroit or just about any city in SE Michigan. Look at the empty plants and run down areas of those towns. And I'm not just talking about a block or two of slums, I'm talking about miles and miles of empty buildings and vacant lots.

Having grown up in MI I had great interest in the Big 3 automakers and always thought I'd drive their cars forever. That stuck with me until I drove my first foreign car, and what a difference.

Now let me pose a question to you union auto workers....if your products are so great and last so long and get better mileage and can compete price-wise with the foreign badged cars, why are they outselling you all around the country? If it weren't for the programs where the Big 3 automakers give such big new car discounts to employees of just about any business that's related to the automakers, I think the foreign cars would outsell the Big 3 cars in Michigan.

What say you?
 
That is the lie we are being fed.

Is anyone so naive that they think slave labor and cheap manufacturing have not been available through out history? We always kept that ruin from our door step with tariff and tax policies that kept manufacturing and jobs in OUR country. The world has not changed, we have changed our policies to allow this disaster to happen. It has always been an alternative, but for most of our countries history we had the good sense to not allow it to happen. I think we all need to take a hard look at WHY this is happening and who is profiting from it. The American middle class is certainly NOT benefiting from this change in policy.


"The world has not changed" Really??? That is good news to all worrying about China. MM
 
This really depends on your definition of "foreign"!

I for one, struggle to define it. My GL 450 was made in the U.S., as is the smaller sibling the ML and BMW's X5. Many Lexus RX's are built stateside too.

In the meantime, your wife's Ford was assembled in Ontario, and her friend's Cadillac could very well have come from Mexico.

I realize that at the end of the day any vehicle with a blue oval or a crest & wreath on the grill are "North American domestic", but I still say that these lines at best, are VERY BLURRY!

These will make it clear as mud. MM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/355/the-carscom-american-made-index
 
If you follow the Stassel plan.....we will be calling up China when we need more tanks, guns and ammo, also :huh:....for a multitude of reasons....the U.S. is currently getting it's collective a** kicked in an alarming amount of the manufacturing world.....we, the citizens, need to pull together, figure it out, and fix it now...even if it means foregoing another round of golf.....if we ever, seriously, have to defend ourselves we will need to be proficient in manufacturing, in addition to, exchanging information......I was in Vietnam, I remember well, that feeling, when someone is shooting at you, with a serious intention to f*** you up.....try getting China on the phone then....

Who said we were doing away with strategic defense contractors? We are discussing consumer goods. MM
 
Is the corporate profit what's most important? I'd argue that it isn't. Take Chrsyler as an example. Before it was Italian owned, it was German owned (Daimler-Chrysler was only a "merger" if you believed press releases). When Chrysler WAS a U.S. company, it was run by executives who sold it a foreign company.

So how appropriate was the loyalty of U.S. the consumers who put a higher priority on corporate profits than local employment?

They also make have very low American content in their "American" vehicles. If not to make a profit what is the goal of a corporation? The reason it was sold was it wasn't making money. MM
 
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Seriously? Foriegn manufactures have actually had More safety related recalls than the domestics lately. While you may have had a few bad one's the majority I have driven have been quiet, dependable and stylish. I put 125,000 miles on a 2004 Blazer with not so much as a major problem.

And while the foreign companies say they employ Americans, the reality is that we have traded Detroit American jobs for Southern foreign jobs. When GM and Chrysler needed help, Southern law makers voted against it.....Hmmmmm I wonder why? Because that is where the forgein auto plants are. It was GM Ford and Chrysler that came through for the Country when the country needed them and build the machines of war that got us through WWII.

Now here is the kicker......the profits those foreign companies make, go towards our trade deficit and make Japan and Korea stronger while we get weaker. We can not sell cars in Japan, Korea and other contries like they can here. Their trade policies are so skewed against us it is rediculous.

What I am afraid of is that we no longer know how to make anything and can't. A country that depends on others is doomed......I buy as much American as I can, I know its not much but I try..... You are either part of the solution or part of the problem....IMHO.
Thanks for listening!!

Why did they need bailouts? Oh I know, overpaid unions. The so called "auto" bailout was really a union bailout. Countries that work and trade together are far less likely to go to war, so they are not doomed. MM
 
Its funny to listen to the unions are dead folks..... never really worked a day in their life. And if they had they were too stupid to understand that they were entitled to a decent life, even if they earned a living with the sweat of their brow. They hate unions for the same reason they admire the CEO's who get huge bonuses, because we are smart enough to make them sign a contract before we work for them. Why is it, a CEO or wall street contract is valid but a union contract is evil? What kind of two faced bull**** is that?

Absolutely idiotic this constant badgering of unions. These are the same guys who say there is nothing wrong with a CEO who makes 300 times what his workers make getting a multi-million dollar bonus. But those damn unions and their stupid workers who don't have an education or a degree, those bastards are stealing us blind! Good god they are making 50 grand a year and buying a house and raising snot nosed kids..... dirty bastards even want insurance. Those unions are the problem, not the billion dollar CEOs and their bonuses that equal more than all their employees make collectively. Dirty union sons a bitches should know their place, live in tents and die at 40 so we can get their snot nosed kids in there working for even less.

And for you poor stupid guys who work for a living and are not in a union, don't bull**** yourselves. These elitist sons a bitches hate you too, they just know you got no way to fight back. They can kick you all they want and you can't do anything about it. I honestly feel sorry for you.

And FYI, I have been in the same union for 30 years. I have seen a few slackers and they all got bounced from the union and went to work for SCABS...... think about that for a minute.
 
Its funny to listen to the unions are dead folks..... never really worked a day in their life. And if they had they were too stupid to understand that they were entitled to a decent life, even if they earned a living with the sweat of their brow. They hate unions for the same reason they admire the CEO's who get huge bonuses, because we are smart enough to make them sign a contract before we work for them. Why is it, a CEO or wall street contract is valid but a union contract is evil? What kind of two faced bull**** is that?

Absolutely idiotic this constant badgering of unions. These are the same guys who say there is nothing wrong with a CEO who makes 300 times what his workers make getting a multi-million dollar bonus. But those damn unions and their stupid workers who don't have an education or a degree, those bastards are stealing us blind! Good god they are making 50 grand a year and buying a house and raising snot nosed kids..... dirty bastards even want insurance. Those unions are the problem, not the billion dollar CEOs and their bonuses that equal more than all their employees make collectively. Dirty union sons a bitches should know their place, live in tents and die at 40 so we can get their snot nosed kids in there working for even less.

And for you poor stupid guys who work for a living and are not in a union, don't bull**** yourselves. These elitist sons a bitches hate you too, they just know you got no way to fight back. They can kick you all they want and you can't do anything about it. I honestly feel sorry for you.

And FYI, I have been in the same union for 30 years. I have seen a few slackers and they all got bounced from the union and went to work for SCABS...... think about that for a minute.
I couldn't agree more packdaddy!!!
 
The reason it is good to look at history is so we are not doomed to repeat past mistakes, many people do not know things like that, I'm glad you do. Many also fail to understand that in the manufacturing vacum we filled for the world, wages were artificially inflated due to that lack of competition. At some point there had to be an equalizing, the function of markets cannot be stopped. Even in the old Soviet Union a free underground market existed to supply what the people needed. You make a presumption of other peoples situations based on your life and surroundings, while some countries do have bad working conditions, most do not, so calling it slave labor because they don;t make what you think they should is wrong.

You blast "Chinese junk" but cheap quality goods are exactly what American consumers demand today. It frustrates me as well because I prefer good quality goods that will last. People today have money for things the rich could not dream of owning 20 years ago. We are richer as a society today than ever. Yes, some are laid off but that is not because of imports, it is poor policies from Washington. Anyone not in manufacturing should be insulted by your baseless bashing of people working in information industries as well as the service folks for your disrespect for their contributions to society.

I hope you bought the right table and made a wise economic decision for your family. That is what the decision should be based on not emotion and how we wish the world to be. I am a big supporter of many businesses that I could get a cheaper price on the items from another source but I make the economic decision to support them as it is in my interes in the long run. For example it would be a good economic decision to by from Jim at BOE for the service even if he is not the cheapest. I go out of my way to buy from my local West Marine so they stay in business locally to serve me later. I also LOVE to buy goods made by or from my fellow Americans, I have great pride in my country as well but as you said "The statements about why don't you buy everything from your own family or state, etc. are also academic hogwash. The reality is that none of that nonsense is even possible." Indeed it is not. As you further said "I'm not saying that we should be a protectionist society." it appears you know the truth , you just don't like it. MM

Blah!.....Blah!....Blah! Man, what a windbag! Is your wife able to shut you up? :)
 
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This really depends on your definition of "foreign"!

I for one, struggle to define it. My GL 450 was made in the U.S., as is the smaller sibling the ML and BMW's X5. Many Lexus RX's are built stateside too.

In the meantime, your wife's Ford was assembled in Ontario, and her friend's Cadillac could very well have come from Mexico.

I realize that at the end of the day any vehicle with a blue oval or a crest & wreath on the grill are "North American domestic", but I still say that these lines at best, are VERY BLURRY!

One way to think of this is that Ford and GM also serve the Canadian and Mexican domestic markets. In the past, Canada, and I believe Mexico to some extent, had pretty strong laws on the books that cars sold in their countries had to have significant domestic content. As a result, If you like old cars and peruse e-bay, you'll find some weird cars you've never heard of. The U.S. Pontiac Catalina was the Canadian Pontiac Laurentian for example.

So, today, My Ford Freestyle wagon that was built in Kansas City was also sold in Canada and Mexico. The Edge may have been assembled in Canada, but is sold in the U.S. and Mexico as well. And the Edge may well have an engine and transmission that was sourced from the U.S. When trade is a two way thing, it's a win-win. When all of our televisions are coming from outside the U.S., not so much.

The main reason the Germans, etc., build some cars in the U.S. is to stabilize currency fluctuation issues that can make their cars too expensive to sell in the U.S. Look up the recent stories on the new VW Passat plant in Chattanooga, TN.

There is no perfect scale to all this, but the more elements you can find such as designed, built, and has profits going to a U.S. company, or at least sends profits to a country that treats its workers well (Germany) you are doing more for your neighbor then if you look for a product that is mainly sold on price and is sourced to 3rd world or emerging market labor.
 
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Very well said and o so true. I am a 16 yr union employee with verizon and they are the greedist company in the world. Ceo makes 55,000$ a day?.
 
Its funny to listen to the unions are dead folks..... never really worked a day in their life. And if they had they were too stupid to understand that they were entitled to a decent life, even if they earned a living with the sweat of their brow. They hate unions for the same reason they admire the CEO's who get huge bonuses, because we are smart enough to make them sign a contract before we work for them. Why is it, a CEO or wall street contract is valid but a union contract is evil? What kind of two faced bull**** is that?

Absolutely idiotic this constant badgering of unions. These are the same guys who say there is nothing wrong with a CEO who makes 300 times what his workers make getting a multi-million dollar bonus. But those damn unions and their stupid workers who don't have an education or a degree, those bastards are stealing us blind! Good god they are making 50 grand a year and buying a house and raising snot nosed kids..... dirty bastards even want insurance. Those unions are the problem, not the billion dollar CEOs and their bonuses that equal more than all their employees make collectively. Dirty union sons a bitches should know their place, live in tents and die at 40 so we can get their snot nosed kids in there working for even less.

And for you poor stupid guys who work for a living and are not in a union, don't bull**** yourselves. These elitist sons a bitches hate you too, they just know you got no way to fight back. They can kick you all they want and you can't do anything about it. I honestly feel sorry for you.

And FYI, I have been in the same union for 30 years. I have seen a few slackers and they all got bounced from the union and went to work for SCABS...... think about that for a minute.

I couldn't agree more packdaddy!!!

Blah!.....Blah!....Blah! Man, what a windbag! Is your wife able to shut you up? :)

I know, you guys know it all, but for others that do not, the winner of most debates is determined when mentally bankrupt name calling begins. You have not added one thing to the debate other than thugishness. Show us 1 example of how unions benefit the country, not you personally, but the country and our overall economic system. We can show how they hurt the economic competitiveness of the country. I take the time to post opinion and information, find a way to rebut my points. MM
 
For all the Union bashers , I am UNION ! Just for your information not all unions go on strike , In my contract we have a NO strike clause , which i support ! after my training as an apprentice and i recieved my Engineers license , My union Hall finds me work , every union employer for my local gives a trial period ,in most cases if your a slouch ,lazy and not skilled ,they will get rid of you , I bust my ass every day and love what I do and expect to be paid well , and have benefits , Oh and dont tell me I make too much , because i didnt go to a 4 or 5 year school and sit behind a desk pushing a pencil making 6 figures a year doesnt mean your superior over me !! I have nothing agianst NON union workers , unless there lazy and not willing to learn and train for growing, upgraded technology
 

That is an interesting story and entirely consistent with the Stossel piece, make good economic decisions on the goods you buy. And if it is EVEN close I would buy American. Some here seem to think advocating to buy the best product is anti-American. It is in our best interest as a country and a planet. MM

http://money.msn.com/how-to-budget/what-if-you-had-to-buy-american.aspx
 

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