Buy American

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by boltman, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. WazzuCMGrad

    WazzuCMGrad New Member

    225
    Oct 30, 2011
    Seattle, WA
    '08 205 Sport
    Merc 5.0L TKS 220HP; Alpha One
    Just a question; does the union person sweeping floors costing the company he works for almost $50/hour deserve that much more than the same person sweeping floors for an independent businessperson costing (including health insurance) approx. $23/hour, using a $10/hr base wage, $4.50/hr to cover insurance, and the same fringes structure as a union employee would get?

    Even raising the non-union wage by $10/hr would still save that company money over hiring union. I'm just confused... :)
     
  2. susanandlance

    susanandlance New Member

    Feb 10, 2011
    Florida
    2005 Fountain 27, 496HO power, towed by Chevrolet Duramax HD 4x4
    496HO, 425 HP
    A union person sweeping the floors for 50 an hr.?????? Damn, I'm quiting the airlines as a technican and going to proudly sweep floors for alot MO-MONEY!!!!!
     
  3. WazzuCMGrad

    WazzuCMGrad New Member

    225
    Oct 30, 2011
    Seattle, WA
    '08 205 Sport
    Merc 5.0L TKS 220HP; Alpha One
    Look up the wages for construction trades. No joke. As a clarification, the $50/hour is based on their cost to the company, all-in. That worker receives a wage of almost $31.00/hour on their check, before taxes and deductions.
     
  4. WazzuCMGrad

    WazzuCMGrad New Member

    225
    Oct 30, 2011
    Seattle, WA
    '08 205 Sport
    Merc 5.0L TKS 220HP; Alpha One
    Another perspective; from a different union recently going through some "changes" not much different from the UAW and others:
    ...Boeing and the Machinists Union have clashed in the past, Wroblewski acknowledged. But with the ratification of the contract extension, the two sides are now committed to working together.
    “It’ll be a big shift; that we both need to embrace. But we must do this,” he said. “Because it’s obvious that we as union members cannot prosper if the Boeing Co. isn’t successful, and we’ve seen quite clearly that Boeing’s success is tied directly to the skills and experience of our Machinists Union members.”

    The best negotiations typically end when both sides feel they gave up something to get a deal, but don't feel like they gave up everything. UAW, IAM, etc. are starting to realize this, but there's still a cost inequality that is keeping the overall economy from improving.
     
  5. susanandlance

    susanandlance New Member

    Feb 10, 2011
    Florida
    2005 Fountain 27, 496HO power, towed by Chevrolet Duramax HD 4x4
    496HO, 425 HP
    Maybe true, wow!! But a bunch of cheap labor ME@#@@#@ built my house (I know this) and it's thrown together like garbage. My Airline tells us that we, as Technicans cost the company about 50 an hr., BUT, you should see some of the SH@# that comes back from overseas MRO'S, it would scare the livin' **** outta you!!! So, as far as a floor sweeper making 50 an hr, thats is crazy too much indeed!!
     
  6. twomad

    twomad New Member

    146
    Jul 13, 2009
    1000 islands
    88 300 weekender/sold
    97 230 ov 5.7 efi
    5.7 efi bravo 111
    Stop blaming the union worker and open your eyes to corporate greed. I work for a corporation that makes billons in profit every year. For the last 4yrs. the top 5 have paid themselves 250 million$. They also recieved a 700 million$ tax rebate from the feds. People try and say that if the employes of this corporation were non-union vs. union that there bills would be less, but in reality the corporation would stuff the pockets,and the quality of service that you would get would be a lot less. The major problem in my opinion is corporate greed which is killing the middle class american who is trying to make a decent living. The botomn line is not the union worker but corporate greed. Also anybody who say's it's okay to ship american jobs or work overseas is totally wrong.
     
  7. susanandlance

    susanandlance New Member

    Feb 10, 2011
    Florida
    2005 Fountain 27, 496HO power, towed by Chevrolet Duramax HD 4x4
    496HO, 425 HP
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  8. rcknecht

    rcknecht Active Member

    Mar 23, 2009
    toms river,nj
    340 Sundancer 2001
    T 454 MPI
    If everyone had to join a union to get job, and the unions provided health benefits, and the unions were responsible for ensuring their workers are US citizens, would that be a good thing?

    Now some would say the cost to the employers would be higher, but if the dollar was permitted to devaluate, and the unions would work cooperatively with the employers maybe it could work...

    Just saying... This is how the unions work in Japan...

    The union workers where a one time the heart of the middle class... Now with socialism gripping our country, the unions are maybe on the wrong side...
     
  9. WazzuCMGrad

    WazzuCMGrad New Member

    225
    Oct 30, 2011
    Seattle, WA
    '08 205 Sport
    Merc 5.0L TKS 220HP; Alpha One
    ...The Goose and the Golden Egg situation presents itself again. See my comment about negotiations above. (though, I'm sure you're not specifically speaking toward me, and even if you are, I agree with you to an extent)

    All valuable opinions; but shouldn't someone who risks their well-being and ability to provide for their family reap some benefits from taking the risk (business founders/owners)? Capitalism has been the basis of our economic engine for a long, long time.

    Look back in time, to the Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, and others (see Gates, Bill) that used capitalism to their advantage, only to turn around and, after setting their families up for many generations, donated the rest of their wealth to worthy causes such as education and other items that benefit the greater good. Maybe that's more of the issue than the fact that they took risks that paid off, and deserve to benefit from it.
     
  10. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    The American vs. non-American thing is not Expensive Unions vs cheap foreign labor. It's that $10/hr American Labor (union or non-union) is more expensive than $100/month foreign labor.

    If you eliminate Unions, you will not bring manufacturing back into the country. The driver is still to do everything overseas. And when China gets too expensive (costs there ARE going up), manufacturing will move to Vietnam (not the U.S.).

    And yes. .. if you suddenly drop labor costs 50% -> I fail to see how that changes *market driven* prices. Maybe in the long term there might be an impact. . .but in the short term all you do is bring up profit margins.

    Unions WERE the heart of the middle class. I think part of the problem is that Unions became the "establishment", and thus part of the "problem" rather than the "solution". I am not so sure about the "socialism gripping the country thing". Sure. . .things have gone a bit "left" in the last few years, but (a) Pensions are disappearing, not expanding, (b) Retirement age is likely to go up, not down (c) Medicine is not now, nor is it going, towards a government based program (Remember: Obamacare is driven by market based insurance; and the last house vote on Medicare was to turn that program into a *voucher* system).
     
  11. MonacoMike

    MonacoMike Well-Known Member

    Sep 15, 2009
    Indiana lakes and Lake Michigan
    2000 Cruisers 3870
    97 270 Sundancer
    85 Sea Ray Monaco 197
    8.2 Mercs,
    7.4 BII
    260hp Alpha 1
    See red text above. MM
     
  12. autovette

    autovette New Member

    210
    Dec 4, 2009
    USA
    62 Trawler
    Man's
    If my Marlow was built in America I would buy American. I guess the same is true of my Rolls.
     
  13. susanandlance

    susanandlance New Member

    Feb 10, 2011
    Florida
    2005 Fountain 27, 496HO power, towed by Chevrolet Duramax HD 4x4
    496HO, 425 HP
    And if the corporations could get rid of the unions , they'd just hire the cheapest illegal labor, and when that wasn't enough, they'd offer up a job w/ min. wage, ect. ZERO benefits, just so they could line their pockets until the end........... Been there, saw that!!
     
  14. MonacoMike

    MonacoMike Well-Known Member

    Sep 15, 2009
    Indiana lakes and Lake Michigan
    2000 Cruisers 3870
    97 270 Sundancer
    85 Sea Ray Monaco 197
    8.2 Mercs,
    7.4 BII
    260hp Alpha 1
  15. jason78

    jason78 Active Member TECHNICAL Contributor

    Sep 3, 2008
    Fort Mill, SC / Lake Wylie
    1997 20 Outrage
    200 Merc Offshore
    Haven't the Unions been on the front lines lobbying for the illegals to be legalized for quite some time now? Not in the high-tech sector but the "base laborers"? I seem to recall several times in past years hearing the AFL-CIO calling for legalization. Also seem to recall them being tied in somehow with some of the workers that were busted in those meat packing plant raids a couple years back. I think the Union leaders' main concern is to keep the cash flowing in to their pocket one way or another. I hate to say this but I don;t think they really care who is paying the dues as long as they are getting paid. They no doubt see the [current] illegal workers as a lucrative future cash flow.

    It is no secret how I feel about the Unions. The thing I don't understand here is why the Union folks are against the rich CEOs but don't seem to mind the fat cat union bosses making money hand over foot off the same workers that support them. I mean what about all these lavish retreats and vacations the Union leaders take at your expense? Is that OK with you?

    I have seen first hand what years of paying Union dues got the tire workers in Charlotte about 10 years ago. I think they got like $150/wk in "strike pay" for 3 months and then were cut off when the company hired the "scabs" and let them go. It does not seem like they got taken care of. It seems like when Union workers go on strike and loose their job as a result, they get to stand in the unemployment line and the Union gets to keep all the money the workers have paid in. Or is there some big huge severance pay we never hear about that comes from the union?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  16. Ka1oxd

    Ka1oxd New Member

    Nov 19, 2009
    Connecticut River at Portland Riverside Marina
    1988 Sea Ray 340 Sundancer
    7.4l inboards
    3 points:

    1. When companies globalize they are doing it for a reason. They see the emerging markets as a gold mine. Look at GM. They created a plant in China to make cars for the Chinese because China will not allow the imports to their country. In GM case, they sold this last year more cars in China than the US. While these cars do not need to meet the expectations of the US market, then do in China without all the bells and whistle expected here.

    Caterpillar does the same thing, instead of building that huge equipment here they create plants around the world to server that area.

    2. Go back and look at the history. Japan was cheap wages 50 years ago, but now their wages and benefits are reaching the same as the US. India has created the most Millionaires in the last year than anywhere else. Both of these places were seen as cheap labor when they first entered the global market. China will follow as well as any other emerging market, but I will be dead before I see it.

    Even at $10 an hour, a family of 2 is still considered at the poverty level in the US where in other countries are considered upper middle class.

    3. When I first started in the work force in 1970, employers used to promote education and invest in their employees. Education system used to seek and take advantage of businesses to ensure that education met the goals that business needed to be successful. Now every time I switch jobs ( i GET BORED AFTER 4 YEARS, just kidding), I ensure that the company will pay me for CPE and certifications as part of my deal. This benefits both the company by having skill workers and makes me more marketable. Additionally, until the mid 1990's, there was a relationship between the workers and the company, it was called mutual respect. If you were a good worker, you could achieve 30 to 40 years at a company. Now with macroeconomics, workers with 10 or more years are on the hit parade. You can be replaced with cheaper employees just out of school, to keep costs down.

    It is all about the bottom line and to create this enormous wealth for senior management, by cutting costs and not investing in the workforce.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  17. susanandlance

    susanandlance New Member

    Feb 10, 2011
    Florida
    2005 Fountain 27, 496HO power, towed by Chevrolet Duramax HD 4x4
    496HO, 425 HP
    @ Jason, I agree w/you about the union big wigs ect. However, back in the mid- 80's, Continental Airlines broke the union (in BK) and then offered the workers back their jobs at approx. half of the pay that the rest of the industry was making......... A fine example of corp. greed. Bet you don't know why Southwest airlines is so successful either, do ya??? it's not just the cheap fares, they are at the top of the food chain of pay in this industry, and, they treat their employee great!!! A long time friend of mine works there that used to work w/me at USELESS Airways, right in the queen city(near you). And BTW, Southwest Airlines is union. like I've said before, I'm not pro-union, as most of the airline folks are not either. We (most of us) refer to the union as "The necessary evil". LOL The only reason Delta Airlines never votes a union in is because everytime a card drive gets started, delta gives them a pay raise. If all companies (and they are out there) would treat the employees w/respect (Southwest) they would get it back, in turn, no need for the union. Big pay for a CEO that runs a great performing company I have ZERO problem with, at USAirway's (when I was w/them) sent a group of senior mgmt around to the stations pleeding for pay and benefits cuts, when they got them later, the top exects. split millions in bonuses. I bet alot of people on here would think that is ok, I'm NOT one of them!!!
     
  18. twomad

    twomad New Member

    146
    Jul 13, 2009
    1000 islands
    88 300 weekender/sold
    97 230 ov 5.7 efi
    5.7 efi bravo 111
    If you did some research you would see that there are a lot of profitable corporations that got tax rebates from the gov. this money could be used to create more jobs. these rebates were created by bushes tax laws the rich get richer and the middle class gets poorer. Mike i have to tell you that i'm glad that there aren't a lot of americans that have your opinion because if they did we would be communists.
    QUOTE=MonacoMike;533082]See red text above. MM[/QUOTE]
     
  19. Four Suns

    Four Suns Head Pot Stirrer TECHNICAL Contributor

    Oct 4, 2006
    Williamsburg, VA
    2003 480 DB
    Zodiac ProJet Dinghy
    Yamaha 110vx WaveRunner
    QSM-11 Diesels
    [/QUOTE]

    Good grief. Where did you do your "research"? The Rachel Madcow show? Or moveon.org?
     
  20. floriduramax1

    floriduramax1 Active Member

    Sep 19, 2010
    Florida
    280DA, Magic Tilt triple axle, 2006 GMC 2500 D/A
    T4.3/ Alpha
    When I have time I will dig up some more "pro union" remarks you have referenced just towards me! So exactly where are you on "unions"?? It's ok for you to say you are not pro union, but it's not ok with you if I say anything about them?? Typical Lib... You may refer to me as a "redneck" but at least I'm consistent on the issues...just sayin
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011

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