Breaker pops on shore power

[HawkX66]

Any reason why the bilge pump breaker would pop after using the Vacuflush for a few minutes when the batteries aren't tuned on?
If I don't have the batteries turned on and I'm using the toilet, the lights will lightly pulse as the Vacuflush builds vacuum again. Sometimes it will pop the breaker. It doesn't happen if I'm on shore power and the batteries are on.
Time for a new a/c to d/c converter? Not big enough? Is that also the battery charger? Mine is a 2003 Guest Pro. I've been planning on reinstalling it. I don't like how someone did it.

 

[hughespat57]

Something is crossed and the vacuflush is pulling power from the bilge circuit?

The only thing powered on my boat with the batteries Off is the bilge pumps.

The vacuflush is powered 24/7 ?
That doesnt seem correct.
Doesnt it have its own breaker?

 

[HawkX66]

Something is crossed and the vacuflush is pulling power from the bilge circuit?

The only thing powered on my boat with the batteries Off is the bilge pumps.

The vacuflush is powered 24/7 ?
That doesnt seem correct.
Doesnt it have its own breaker?

I don't think anything is crossed per se. I don't see any evidence of Joe Blow doing any "custom" wiring thankfully. When I'm on shore power and I turn the AC converter breaker on, most 12v DC options work.

 

[hughespat57]

I cant find a wiring diagram for your model, nor even the owners manual.
But all newer manuals refer to a "Head System Breaker" check your DC breakers, this breaker is a 15A.
So back feeding thru a 10A may work for a few minutes but as you noticed then it trips.

I dont have a wiring diagram for my 300 either, nearest I could ever find is for a 370.
I use it for reference and it has been fairly equivalent to my 300 (more options of course) Sea Ray was pretty standard from model to model in a given time frame.

The photo you took is the main panel, the 50A "Control Station" should power all your house breakers.
The bilge pump breakers are 24/7 direct off the batteries before the disconnect switch.
Check your smaller breaker panel.

When the batteries or ON I suspect the unit is getting full power properly thru its dedicated wiring/breaker. So the bilge pump breaker does not trip. When the battery switch is Off its getting back feed some how thru the 10A bilge pump breaker which is not large enough for the VacuFlush

Is there any other devices that continue to work with the battery switch Off? Nothing 12V should.

 

[HawkX66]

I cant find a wiring diagram for your model, nor even the owners manual.
But all newer manuals refer to a "Head System Breaker" check your DC breakers, this breaker is a 15A.
So back feeding thru a 10A may work for a few minutes but as you noticed then it trips.

I dont have a wiring diagram for my 300 either, nearest I could ever find is for a 370.
I use it for reference and it has been fairly equivalent to my 300 (more options of course) Sea Ray was pretty standard from model to model in a given time frame.

The photo you took is the main panel, the 50A "Control Station" should power all your house breakers.
The bilge pump breakers are 24/7 direct off the batteries before the disconnect switch.
Check your smaller breaker panel.

When the batteries or ON I suspect the unit is getting full power properly thru its dedicated wiring/breaker. So the bilge pump breaker does not trip. When the battery switch is Off its getting back feed some how thru the 10A bilge pump breaker which is not large enough for the VacuFlush

Is there any other devices that continue to work with the battery switch Off? Nothing 12V should.

Most everything DC works on shore power when the batteries are off.
The closest manuals I could find for my 97 are for the 400... Except for the Parts Manual. I found that one. See below.
If I'm not mistaken, 97 was the first year for Sundancer Vacuflush.
Before I painted the switch panel, you could just barely read all the DC breakers. There wasn't a dedicated one for the Vacuflush.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Any reason why the bilge pump breaker would pop after using the Vacuflush for a few minutes when the batteries aren't tuned on?
If I don't have the batteries turned on and I'm using the toilet, the lights will lightly pulse as the Vacuflush builds vacuum again. Sometimes it will pop the breaker. It doesn't happen if I'm on shore power and the batteries are on.
Time for a new a/c to d/c converter? Not big enough? Is that also the battery charger? Mine is a 2003 Guest Pro. I've been planning on reinstalling it. I don't like how someone did it.

Batteries are supposed to be ON for most accessories to work (other than auto bilge pumps for example). Meaning, if your batteries are turned off, the Vacuflush shouldn't be working. It sounds like Joe Blow may have, indeed, been up to something I would start by checking at the back of the battery switches to see what's going on. You WANT the battery switches to do what they're supposed to do.

But, like Pat said, what you're seeing shouldn't happen. Something is crossed or old/dying. Pull the panel and check things out - make sure all connections are clean/tight. Might just be old/faulty breakers.

Yes, "converter" is the technical name for the charger as it "converts" AC to DC.

 

[HawkX66]

Batteries are supposed to be ON for most accessories to work (other than auto bilge pumps for example). Meaning, if your batteries are turned off, the Vacuflush shouldn't be working. It sounds like Joe Blow may have, indeed, been up to something I would start by checking at the back of the battery switches to see what's going on. You WANT the battery switches to do what they're supposed to do.

But, like Pat said, what you're seeing shouldn't happen. Something is crossed or old/dying. Pull the panel and check things out - make sure all connections are clean/tight. Might just be old/faulty breakers.

Yes, "converter" is the technical name for the charger as it "converts" AC to DC.

Thanks. I'll pull the panel and see how she's wired. Maybe when they put the new converter in they moved some wires around also.

 

[MonacoMike]

Back then vacuflush was an option that may have even been dealer installed. I do not recall a breaker in my 270DA, anywhere, just the main shutoff in the head.

 

[hughespat57]

Well some progress...

If the accessories are powered by the convertor with the battery switch Off, then you are also likely not charging the from the convertor when the switch is Off.
The convertor should go directly to the batteries (thru a fuse) Or it goes to the "Battery" terminal on the battery switch (again should be fused). It would appear they connected the convertor to the "Load" side of the switch. My bet.

That should not be the cause of the vacuflush issue, but fix what you know is wrong and re-test the vacuflush situation.
As a new "accessory" the vacuflush is likely connected to one of generic number 8 15A breakers. That would be the right size.

Since it is pulling power thru the 10A bilge circuit, check the wiring behind the panel that goes to the manual bilge pump switch, power for that comes from that bilge pump breaker. A simple chaffed wire could be cross connecting the circuits.

 

[HawkX66]

Someone was in the panel. Looks like what you said @MonacoMike. The macerator key switch and one wire on the bilge pump breaker uses different crimp connectors. All the yellow ones. This is what it looks like.
There are also two wires that aren't hooked to anything. Options that weren't installed probably. Wish I had a wiring diagram for the wire numbers! They're still tagged.
@Lazy Daze Any chance you have access to the wiring schematic for my 97 290DA 454? I'd be grateful...

 

[hughespat57]

That doesn't look bad at all really, the color difference is just the wire sizes yellow 10/12AWG, blue 14/16AWG,
Take a look behind the helm panel, that will give you night mares...
But thats how they come from the factory too.

 

[HawkX66]

That doesn't look bad at all really, the color difference is just the wire sizes yellow 10/12AWG, blue 14/16AWG,
Take a look behind the helm panel, that will give you night mares...
But thats how they come from the factory too.

Nope. No nightmares for me. I replaced all the breakers and switches when I painted the panel.
Yes, it was doing the same thing before I did that. It was dusty, but factory intact thankfully.
Also, the crimp connectors are made by a different manufacturer. It wasn't the colors that that made me say that.

 

[HawkX66]

Score!!! Thanks to Tom at Sea Ray! I figured I'd give the chat feature on the Sea Ray site a try. Rep pulled the schematics out of archives for me. Electrical, hull and manual. I feel like it's Christmas. Ha! FJB. He's not taking Christmas away from me!

 

[HawkX66]

Whoever drew the schematics did a poor job. I hate how boats use AC wiring colors for DC in many situations. Still haven't figured out the reasoning for that. ESPECIALLY when you have both AC and DC power sources... Load and Line when referring to DC power?
Here is the Main DC panel schematic. When they drew it, they didn't even use dots for junction points or half moons where wires jump one another in the drawing...

 

[hughespat57]

I kept looking at that main panel and I agree that switch and gray cable are add on. Its coming off the main 50A breaker (load side at least). There is almost never a ground wire in these boxes (none that I have ever seen) too many high current battery feeds. No ground wires, no chance for a direct short in the box, designed in safety.

There are several wires coming off the HOT side of the pump breakers. This is very unusual, essentially unprotected circuits. They have number tags but I cant make them out. Yellow 14AWG #500 would be 24/7 for stereo memory, but it should come off the load terminal. And the pink/violet (possibly red/violet) would be a generic "accessory" color. Both of these should be thru an Accessory 15A rather then on the pump breakers. That breaker could be feed off the battery side of these for 24/7 power.

 

[HawkX66]

I kept looking at that main panel and I agree that switch and gray cable are add on. Its coming off the main 50A breaker (load side at least). There is almost never a ground wire in these boxes (none that I have ever seen) too many high current battery feeds. No ground wires, no chance for a direct short in the box, designed in safety.

There are several wires coming off the HOT side of the pump breakers. This is very unusual, essentially unprotected circuits. They have number tags but I cant make them out. Yellow 14AWG #500 would be 24/7 for stereo memory, but it should come off the load terminal. And the pink/violet (possibly red/violet) would be a generic "accessory" color. Both of these should be thru an Accessory 15A rather then on the pump breakers. That breaker could be feed off the battery side of these for 24/7 power.
View attachment 115288

Thanks for looking. I'm going to go through the schematic and see what there is to see compared to the actual wiring. The schematic isn't gospel. Things change. The battery layout is different. Even though the head and vacuum generator is mentioned as well as the level sensor for the tank, there isn't a blackwater tank in the diagrams. The batteries are in place of it. There's a few other differences also.