Big 3 Auto Bailout?

Discussion in 'The Tiki Bar' started by Four Suns, Dec 4, 2008.

Should taxpayers bail out the big 3 automakers as they asked for in DC this week?

  1. Yes

    44 vote(s)
    26.2%
  2. No

    124 vote(s)
    73.8%
  1. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    I drive two American cars with V8's. Both are due for replacement in the next year or two.

    In looking at replacements for one of my cars, only one US car seems to be making the list - -> and even with a 20% discount, that one seems a tad overpriced. Every other entry is Japanese. . except for a Volvo. I would happily buy American, but nothing seems worth the price. Mind you, I gave up a few months ago and am not shopping currently. . .

    The most recent purchase was for the Admiral. It was assembled in Georgia (I think) by Toyota. Nothing American got a second glance. GM, Ford, and Chrysler were simply not building cars she wanted to drive daily.

    As for Hybrid. . .don't get me started. Suffice it to say that I am not sold on either the end user economics or the benefit to the environment.
     
  2. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    As a side note on HyBrids;

    What would the battery warrenty on a Hybrid look like? How do you determine the batteries are dying? Milege goes down? Gas engine runs too much? Who makes the determination?
     
  3. tmhudson2

    tmhudson2 New Member

    885
    Aug 30, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Boatless
    Boatless
    We're in the market to replace a Honda Odyssey van, not because it's worn out or anything, but with oldest now in college we don't need to haul many kids around anymore. She likes the more elevated view from the van, so the lower-slung cars don't appeal to her. She's considering the Toyota Matrix and its twin, Pontiac Vibe, Nissan Versa, and Honda Fit. Best price right now on the Vibe, simply because it's sold by GM and not Toyota.
     
  4. Turtlesboat

    Turtlesboat Minister of Media TECHNICAL Contributor

    Feb 4, 2007
    New York City
    1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
    3126 427HP TD transmissions
    buy a big ole' honkin' truck. then you can go truck tent camping.
     
  5. vetteboy

    vetteboy New Member

    112
    Nov 11, 2008
    Florida
    300 Sundancer
    Two
    Something to chew on.......

    Dear Employees & Suppliers,
    Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis......... As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard. Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

    -Troy Clarke President General Motors North America

    Response from: Gregory Knox, President, Knox Machinery Company, Franklin , OH

    Gentlemen:

    In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors North America.


    Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah", Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"… Believe me folks, The dream is over!

    This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities… this dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever a nd ever.

    Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.



    Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states: "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."

    You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management… how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass… so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time… for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics… for putting out too many parts on a shift… and for being too productive. (We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)


    Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr.
    Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few years… we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors." What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? What a joke!

    We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

    I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". "Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day… and the following very important thing would happen…where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up… that is how a free market system works… it does work… if we would only let it work…"



    But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us"… Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening… But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams… yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it…

    Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?... How can that be??? Let's see… Fuel efficient… Listening to customers… Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul…


    Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning… Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"… Efficient front and back offices… Non union environment…

    Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.

    I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make=2 0them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh… Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

    I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away." I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied…"we really might not do it in a year…or in four…" Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.

    Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks … That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000… People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits… That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year… We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe…

    That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be livi ng in that $485,000 home… Let the market correct itself folks - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has…and doesn't live beyond its means…and gets back to basics…and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world…and probably turns back to God.

    Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news". I hope you take it to heart.

    Gregory J. Knox, President
    Knox Machinery, Inc.
    Franklin , Ohio 45005
     
  6. tmhudson2

    tmhudson2 New Member

    885
    Aug 30, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Boatless
    Boatless
    Thank you, vetteboy and Gregory Knox.
     
  7. fc3

    fc3 Just another eclectic geek TECHNICAL Contributor

    Nov 12, 2006
    Northern NJ
    1999 Sea Ray 330DA
    Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
    Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
    Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
    Must be a good guy with whom to do business.
     
  8. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    Yeah. . .buy American.

    Neither of my two American cars was built in the U.S. One was built in Canada. The other in Mexico. The Admiral's Toyota was built in Georgia.

    So the Admiral supports American workers, and I don't?

    But I guess the "profit" for the two American cars stayed in the U.S. Wonder what they did with the money. Stock dividends to Americans? And Toyota stock profits go to . . .Japanese stockholders? Of course, I have a fair fraction of my money in foreign stock funds. They would be investing in Toyota as opposed to Ford. . .right?

    I guess I shouldn't confuse the conversation with a discussion of where parts come from?
     
  9. fc3

    fc3 Just another eclectic geek TECHNICAL Contributor

    Nov 12, 2006
    Northern NJ
    1999 Sea Ray 330DA
    Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
    Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
    Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
    It's not just the assembly jobs. It's the design, engineering, support, IT, etc. that are also lost. Sure, it's nice to screw the UAW, but there's a lot of other nice people who get burned, too.


    Best regards,
    Frank
     
  10. Mark B

    Mark B Member

    34
    Jul 22, 2008
    Irmo, South Carolina
    280 Sundancer
    Twin 5.0's with Bravo III's
    "Toyota posts first operating loss since 1941".
    Now wait a minute. Didn't congress and the media just berate the american companies because their "business model" didn't work and they "don't make cars people want".
    They all hold Toyota up to some superior level and now it appears their "business model" is no better in the current market.
    As for building cars people want; why did the american companies make and sell so many trucks and SUV's? your right again-because thats what people wanted and were willing to pay for. The foreign companies spent billions trying to catch up and failed miserably to produce competitive products. Check out the days of inventory for the Prius over the last 60 days as gas has gone to $1.50.
     
  11. vetteboy

    vetteboy New Member

    112
    Nov 11, 2008
    Florida
    300 Sundancer
    Two
    Here is something else to ponder....Be afraid.......With Obama and Palosi and Reed at the helm, this is possible.

    If U.S. car companies are going to survive, they have to sell more cars.
    But what happens if Americans don’t want to buy more American cars? No matter how big the bailout, it’ll be money down the drain if Americans don’t start buying from Detroit again.
    So how can the government force consumers to buy something they don’t want?
    First will come “buy American” tax rebates to encourage sales of American cars. But even rebates may not be enough to sell cars that no one wants. So next we’ll see big tax hikes on foreign cars, making them too expensive to buy.
    These restrictions won’t come easy. It’s one thing to have politicians telling car companies what to make and how to make them. But it’s another thing when the government starts telling us what we have to buy.
    Americans like buying things from whoever makes the best, whether it’s a Toyota car or a Sony TV. Still, we live in a moment when politicians are acting against the popular will, so anything can happen.
    If you want a foreign car, maybe now’s the time to buy it. Tomorrow, it may be against the law.
    And that’s the Final Score.
    If U.S. car companies are going to survive, they have to sell more cars.
    But what happens if Americans don’t want to buy more American cars? No matter how big the bailout, it’ll be money down the drain if Americans don’t start buying from Detroit again.
    So how can the government force consumers to buy something they don’t want?
    First will come “buy American” tax rebates to encourage sales of American cars. But even rebates may not be enough to sell cars that no one wants. So next we’ll see big tax hikes on foreign cars, making them too expensive to buy.
    These restrictions won’t come easy. It’s one thing to have politicians telling car companies what to make and how to make them. But it’s another thing when the government starts telling us what we have to buy.
    Americans like buying things from whoever makes the best, whether it’s a Toyota car or a Sony TV. Still, we live in a moment when politicians are acting against the popular will, so anything can happen.
    If you want a foreign car, maybe now’s the time to buy it. Tomorrow, it may be against the law.
    And that’s the Final Score.

     
  12. tmhudson2

    tmhudson2 New Member

    885
    Aug 30, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Boatless
    Boatless
    I predict the Federal gov't will, as part of its economic stimulus plan, artificially stimulate auto sales, first by issuing vouchers to citizens (not necessarily tax-payers, there aren't enough of those) to buy American-made cars; and secondly, direct purchases of vehicles from the Detroit Three only to replenish the gov't fleet.
     
  13. Turtlesboat

    Turtlesboat Minister of Media TECHNICAL Contributor

    Feb 4, 2007
    New York City
    1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
    3126 427HP TD transmissions
    [​IMG]
     
  14. fc3

    fc3 Just another eclectic geek TECHNICAL Contributor

    Nov 12, 2006
    Northern NJ
    1999 Sea Ray 330DA
    Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
    Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
    Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
    Lemonade is symbolic?
     
  15. douglee25

    douglee25 Well-Known Member

    Jan 13, 2008
    Dallas, TX
    Cruisers 3575
    Twin 7.4l
    Twin 7.4l
  16. fc3

    fc3 Just another eclectic geek TECHNICAL Contributor

    Nov 12, 2006
    Northern NJ
    1999 Sea Ray 330DA
    Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
    Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
    Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
    Someone has to keep Bud in business. God bless the uaw! Ford should fire those guys so that they can spend the entire day boozing rather than having their drinking interrupted by the need to show their faces at "work."
     
  17. Four Suns

    Four Suns Head Pot Stirrer TECHNICAL Contributor

    Oct 4, 2006
    Williamsburg, VA
    2003 480 DB
    Zodiac ProJet Dinghy
    Yamaha 110vx WaveRunner
    QSM-11 Diesels
  18. fc3

    fc3 Just another eclectic geek TECHNICAL Contributor

    Nov 12, 2006
    Northern NJ
    1999 Sea Ray 330DA
    Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
    Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
    Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
    Because someone might have had second thoughts about giving them 100b. 13b before, 30b now, 50 next time, and so forth is a lot easier. And the more they owe you, the more you throw them since you don't want to lose your initial investment.

    The most cogent thing I've read about all of this crap, despite it being incomplete, is the annual report to Berkshire Hathaway stockholders. W.B. addresses this gov't guarantee thing.

    Best regards,
    Frank
     
  19. Stray Cat

    Stray Cat Active Member TECHNICAL Contributor

    Oct 4, 2006
    Pool 10 Guttenberg, IA
    2006 300DA Sundancer
    350 Mags / Bravo III
    Drop the bowtie - GM's new logo (notice how the gear teeth don't mesh)

    [​IMG]
     
  20. tmhudson2

    tmhudson2 New Member

    885
    Aug 30, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Boatless
    Boatless
    I'm glad we still have creative people in this country. If we survive this, and I think we will but it may take a while, it will be the entrepreneurs, engineers and inventors who pull us through. Every day they make millions of decisions to make something a little bit better, and collectively they are the Change We Can Believe In. You know, it probably takes three politicians and fifteen bureaucrats to impede the work of one good engineer.

    Boys, we've got em outnumbered!
     

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