Big 3 Auto Bailout?

Discussion in 'The Tiki Bar' started by Four Suns, Dec 4, 2008.

Should taxpayers bail out the big 3 automakers as they asked for in DC this week?

  1. Yes

    44 vote(s)
    26.2%
  2. No

    124 vote(s)
    73.8%
  1. Four Suns

    Four Suns Head Pot Stirrer TECHNICAL Contributor

    Oct 4, 2006
    Williamsburg, VA
    2003 480 DB
    Zodiac ProJet Dinghy
    Yamaha 110vx WaveRunner
    QSM-11 Diesels
    We need a new poll....

    You think taxpayers should fund a bailout for the "big 3" (not so big now however) as asked for by their management in DC this week?
     
  2. tdappleman

    tdappleman Active Member

    Dec 17, 2007
    Kill Devil Hills, NC
    1996 270 Sundancer
    New twin 4.3's - 235hp each with Alpha 1 Gen 2 Drives
    Not at all - let them declare Chapter 11 - then we can get the UAW out of the way as part of the restructuring. I'll apologize to any UAW members in advance - but I think the unions have served their purpose and now are a hindrance to the companies they 'serve'.
     
  3. midway

    midway Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Oct 3, 2006
    Midway, Ga
    04 SeaRay 185Sport, Smart Tabs, Mageln Meridian Gold GPS, Hbird Matrix 87 dept/ff/gps/cp, Uniden vhf
    4.3L 190HP, Alpha 1 1.81 ratio, 14 1/4X21 Turning Point Prop
    They need to have a real good plan to build their respective companies back up before they get bailed out, otherwise give them a bucket and tell them to start bailing. I have mixed feelings on this, they got themselves in this mess, let them get out, on the other hand a lot of people will be hurt if they don't get the bailout, same with the financial institutions, just not much way around it. I work for a truck dealership, if the big three died we could probably survive here, we would revert back to a service facility, no sales, that is where we started. I may even have to break out the tool box for a few more years til I could retire, who knows may never be able to retire completely.
     
  4. billandamy

    billandamy New Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    Southwest CT
    2008 205 sport. MonsterTower wakeboard tower.
    5.0 mpi (260 hp) alpha one drive with 19p ss prop.
    Pretty much what I was going to say. I am pretty anti-union for the most part for most professions, they were incredibly important for a long time, but are now a hinderance.

    As far as the big 3, let 'em chap 11, or for all I care die. Even dying, entrepreneurs will come in and develop something similar on a better platform and a whole new industry will be born.

    I am against bailouts anytime for any reason. It rubs me the wrong way and I feel goes against the idea of business development.
     
  5. Dave S

    Dave S Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor

    Oct 3, 2006
    Upstate South Carolina
    Boatless
    Boatless
    I say yes to the bailout but to really understand why you have to look at the potential overall economic impact of bankruptcy. I am no economist but the ripple effect that a bankruptcy would cause stretches far beyond the unemployed auto workers, suppliers, dealers, etc. Personally, I think it will trigger a Depression where unemployment goes over 30 percent because it will touch all facets of todays work force no matter what one does for a living. And if you are still in the stock market, you better be prepared for another big decline because the market will take another huge hit as a result of it.

    The bigger problem is how do you get the economy back on track so people can start buying cars again. Here are the November sales figures sourced from http://www.123jump.com/market-update/U.S.-Auto-Sales-Plunge,-BMW-Mini-Gains/30483/

    GM.............down 41.3 percent
    Ford...........down 30.6 percent
    Chrysler......down 47.1 percent
    Toyota.......down 33.9 percent
    Honda........down 31.6 percent

    Now is not the time to let them collapse. The same people that say no to the bailout...............except our politicians, many of who seem to have zero accountability anyway:smt013..........might be the same people out of a job next year. So be carefull what you wish for or it may come back to bite you in the behind.

    I'll now step off my soap-box.
     
  6. Still LauCo

    Still LauCo New Member

    408
    Sep 20, 2007
    Grosse Pointe Farms, MI
    300 Sundancer 1996
    Twin 5.7L EFI Alpha One Drives
    I'm a lifelong Detroiter, but not auto-related, nobody in my immediate family is...

    However, this is not a bail out, it is a bridge loan. The banks that got the $700B bailout that flew in on their corporate jets, they got a bail out.
    (Can you tell I'm not a huge fan of Senator Shelby?)

    I agree about the unions, necessary in the 40's and 50's, but they are a dinosaur dragging down the industry now.

    I want to see them get the loans needed to restructure, survive and prosper. I still have a little faith. We shall see...
     
  7. fc3

    fc3 Just another eclectic geek TECHNICAL Contributor

    Nov 12, 2006
    Northern NJ
    1999 Sea Ray 330DA
    Twin 7.4 MPI (310 propshaft HP) V-drives
    Twin Mercury Marine marinized 7.4L L-29 V8s
    Cast iron block w 4-bolt mains
    I don't think extending them credit is going to do them any favors over the long term. Brief review of GM's last 40 years. Back around 1970, the UAW made outrageous demands on GM. GM declined and the UAW went on strike. The auto business burns huge amounts of cash even when it is producing nothing. So GM's losses were huge. Eventually manglement caved and the UAW got everything it wanted. GM's institutional memory is long. Even when times were tough, like during Carter's stagflation days into the early 80 and again during the slowdown in the early 90s, GM caved on outrageous union demands rather than to take a strike. They could have withstood the strike at those times because they had enough on-hand inventory and nothing was selling all that quickly anyway. But they didn't take any strikes, or push back on the unions. So now those exorbitant costs have come home to roost. GM doesn't want to take on the unions, but if we don't extend them the cash, they are going to have to do it. And the unions are going to have to fold this time because if they don't the bankruptcy proceedings are going to force them to do so.

    The lefties are well aware of these facts and are pushing a bailout so they their unionista supporters don't feel any pain -- unlike everyone else. GM needs this. Might not feel good now, but they'll feel better about it in the morning.

    Best regards,
    Frank
     
  8. katricol

    katricol Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 4, 2008
    LONG ISLAND SOUND
    2000 540DA
    CAT 3196 660 HP
    No to a bailout. Yes to a TOTAL restructuring. I agree with Neil Young who says (simply put) help them now but with this caveat :pick a few model of each category( small, economy, sedan, full sedan, suv, p/u etc) and continue to make them without the engine (no retooling req'd). At the same time use the existing technology to make gas/electric engines to fit them. When the engines are ready put them in the vehicles you already have made, that are waiting for them, then take back the millions of unsold veh. on dealers lots and retrofit the new engines into them. This would allow them to keep working as they change over to the new veh. This would also be done with some very heavy handed dealings with the uaw (think the democratic party and our pres. elect are up to this task?) think this: the uaw either negotiates a FAIR new contract compared with the rest of the real world, or they are done. Period. Done. Gone. All the jobs, all their work for the last 40 + years, all the money, gone. Very heavy handed negotiating by the gov, after all who here dosen't know that these three auto makersw have made BILLIONS in the past years and they never went to the gov. and said "we made more than we needed so do you need any extra taxes, or we're gonna do what's right for the american people and over engineer our products to give back the best vehs. in the world to the american people who have supported us so well, or what"s right for the environment because we've known for years how to do this better? And who dosen't know that even tho the big 3 Isn't doing well here, right now, that elsewhere in the world, they are doing better and MAKING money. I don't trust them and don't buy into the fact they need "bailing". If they want to be bailed out then we the people should own the app. % of their bussiness. JS
     
  9. hack4alivin

    hack4alivin Active Member TECHNICAL Contributor

    Apr 18, 2008
    Joppa, Maryland
    320 Dancer
    Twin 350 V Drives
    I am getting tired of all the bailouts period. Here is my thought on the banking bailout. If the government is going to use taxpayer’s money to bail out the banks for making bad loans, then why not let the taxpayer take credit right off the top of their income tax for money they use in the current year to pay off their dept. I am sure if you could take 2 k for example, pay off a credit card, and take that money right off your income tax (not as a deduction, but a full credit) people would take advantage of it. Banks gets an influx of money in the same way they would by having the government hand it out now, but with the exception of the taxpayer gets relieve as well.

    I am in agreement with Dave here; the entire economy is down, therefore car sales, then the manufacturing itself. The bigger problem is getting money back to the people so they can spend their money not the banks and getting manufacturing and building back online.

    I know this is over simplifying the entire problem, but it sure would be nice to put some money back to the taxpayer who is bearing the burden of the executives screw ups.

    Besides who will be in line after the auto industry?
     
  10. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    4 out of 5 respondants think I am a socialist pig.

    Therefore, I am against a bailout of the automakers. If they can't survive in today's market. . . Honda and Toyota make nice cars. I average a car rental a week for buisness. Have you actually driven a Ford lately? I have. They s*ck. GM's ain't much better. I decline PT cruisers when offered.

    BUT. . . as much as I am against an auto industry "plan", I am far more opposed to a banking industry handout. Exactly WHAT did we get for $400B? I am still not clear on that.

    At least if we bail out the automakers, a whole bunch of working class Americans will continue to get paychecks. That has got to do more for America than giving it to a bunch of bankers who will merely add more to their off shore investment accounts.

    Note: Giving money to people who produce something is a whole bunch different than giving out welfare to deadbeats in my book. We can discuss that in a different thread.
     
  11. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    Dang. Bottom up economics? How can that POSSIBLY work? :grin:

    I just had to recently bail out a relative. Burns my chops. Stupid relative drives a nicer car than I do. :smt021

    Some days I am tempted to mortgage my boat and the house and default just so I can qualify for a handout. I feel like a complete sucker for paying my bills and having a rainy day fund.
     
  12. highslice

    highslice Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 28, 2008
    Table Rock Lake, Hollister Missouri
    270 SLX
    496 Mag
    Bravo III
    Corsa
    I voted yes, but it comes with a caveat. The can have the loans, only as DIP financing after they file Chapeter 11. That will allow them to restructure everything. While current UAW contracts are the biggest drag on the Big 3, they're not the only thing.
     
  13. hack4alivin

    hack4alivin Active Member TECHNICAL Contributor

    Apr 18, 2008
    Joppa, Maryland
    320 Dancer
    Twin 350 V Drives
     
  14. comsnark

    comsnark New Member

    Apr 10, 2007
    NJ Shore
    SeaRay SunSport
    5.7LX
    Yeah. . .money to relatives is a black hole.

    This is not even a blood relative. I was the ONLY person to cough up some dough. . none of the real blood relatives coughed up a dime. I scored big time points with the Admiral. . which is all I expect to ever get out of this.

    It is sort of like the Automakers AND the UAW AND the bankers. They have "demands" of greatness, and look for someone else to bail them out of their mistakes.

    I see this often in 20 somethings. . who don't realize that hey! If you make $30K a year . .perhaps just maybe you shouldn't be driving an Escalade?
     
  15. sbw1

    sbw1 Well-Known Member

    Oct 10, 2006
    West Michigan
    This is listed in my signature
    This is listed in my signature
    55% to 60% of americans have already voted against a bail out by purchasing non domestic autos. However, the bailout out will pass in my view. So even though we may have stopped buying big 3 brands, we will end up buying them again with our tax dollars. They will be parked in all of those garages bought with tax payer dollars. It would be interesting (depressing?) to learn how many houses and cars we own but have never seen.
     
  16. mrsrobinson

    mrsrobinson Well-Known Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    Richmond, Virginia
    2006 Monterey 302 - Sold
    2000 Monterey 302 - Sold
    1995 Sea Ray 330DA - Sold
    2001 Regal 3780 - Sold
    Big ones
    Either way, bailout or bankruptcy, taxpayers are paying for this. I am against it but I have heard some great analysis of what will happen if they are not bailed out, financially speaking. At the end of the day it's almost equal.

    Will you purchase a car from a company that has filed bankruptcy not knowing if your warranty will be honored in the future? Who do you think will back and support the warranties...taxpayers will. Who do you think will pay for the bankruptcy at the end of the day? Taxpayers will.

    I loved it today when they asked them if they drove and if they will drive back....please.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  17. highslice

    highslice Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 28, 2008
    Table Rock Lake, Hollister Missouri
    270 SLX
    496 Mag
    Bravo III
    Corsa

    +1. How about sending the money to people who have mortgages on their house with the stipulation that it be immediately sent to their mortgage holder. Then, if someone needs to lower their monthly payment, they can refinance the lower principal amount. Those of us that were responsible and can afford their house, we have a much shorter amortization. Everybody wins:smt038.
     
  18. Woody

    Woody Well-Known Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    N. Wisconsin/Lk Superior
    2005 420DA
    Cummins 6CTA8.3
    Maybe the oil companies ought to bailout the auto industry. They do have a closer relationship with them than I do.
     
  19. highslice

    highslice Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 28, 2008
    Table Rock Lake, Hollister Missouri
    270 SLX
    496 Mag
    Bravo III
    Corsa
    With the price of oil falling, we'll be bailing out the oil companies next.
     
  20. mrsrobinson

    mrsrobinson Well-Known Member

    Mar 9, 2006
    Richmond, Virginia
    2006 Monterey 302 - Sold
    2000 Monterey 302 - Sold
    1995 Sea Ray 330DA - Sold
    2001 Regal 3780 - Sold
    Big ones
    +1, good observation. You think any of us will qualify for a refi at 4.5%? Doubt it...we will be over qualified.
     

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