Battery problem? (Encore presentation)

trflgrl

Active Member
Jun 23, 2014
982
Middle Tennessee
Boat Info
1989 Sundancer 300
Engines
Twin 350 Merc/Alpha 1 Gen 1; Quicksilver 4.0 gen
Hi there! Have read the Battery thread Blown284 posted so please forgive if I should have added there rather than starting fresh. New to the club but will get in the groove, I promise!

1989 Sea Ray Sundancer 300--haven't found a diagram-for-dummies pic or helpful description to know what SHOULD be connected to each of my three batteries, and haven't traced all the wires but am hoping you seasoned vets will have additional suggestions, regardless.

First time owners as of May 2013 and not the greatest understanding/habits on setting switches correctly for shore power/converter to keep batteries charged; they were winding down fast and frequently but generator and jump starts kept us from getting stranded. Replaced the two main batteries in July 2013 (those we believed were the engine batteries, since they really weren't staying charged even after we corrected our mistakes) and engine starting problems disappeared instantly; we replaced the third battery arbitrarily so we knew we had a clean slate. Been religious ever since ensuring converter is on when connecting to shore power. Also in habit of running genny for 30 min - 1 hr once or twice any day we're on the water but not traveling, like on Sat if we go out Fri and return Sun. Been running like a top and both dash indicators have been solid at 12v or higher through fall and again through spring/summer so far. Cabin/deck lights fine, radio/CD player fine, head/macerator fine; cabin outlets/stove/micro/water heater/cabin heat-AC unit run as expected under generator power.

Two weeks ago we installed a refrigerator--replacement model for manufacturer installed one; prior appliance had been removed before we purchased, but wiring was present. FWIW, it seems to operate only from the helm switch--with that off, the fridge doesn't run. With it on, it does; turning the cabin switch on or off seems to have no effect. First weekend after install, head/macerator were struggling within 24 hours of us unplugging from shore power/switching to ship, doing a 14 mi ride, and running generator as usual. Second full day out, head/macerator quit--cabin lights flickered and small click/buzz from flush switch, but no other activity. All other systems still functioning including fridge. After 14 mi return, head/macerator still click/buzz....but after approx 30 min/1 hr on shore power, flushed again with no problem. Because the fridge was the only change in the system, an early thought was that the fridge/head are on the same circuit, competing for power, and fridge is winning (the owner's guide mentions head should be on separate circuit).

Now 8 days later with only shore power running since; cabin lights flicker but head/macerator make practically no sound at all. What's the likelihood this is operator error of some sort (I hope so--fastest, cheapest fix, right?); head/fridge wiring problem; macerator motor/switch problem; battery/charging bank problem....?

Much appreciation for any guidance--4 day holiday weekend approaching and we'd love to have an operational head AND refrigerator, but right now all we can guess is to turn off the helm switch for the fridge and see what happens, which is what I did tonight to leave it on shore power and check after 24 hr charge.
 
voltmeter gauges should be reading 14+.
what I would do to see whats wired to what is start by dis-connecting all the battery positive leads and connecting only #1 back up. Then see what works and what dosent, then disconnect it
Go and hook up battery 2 , see what works and what dosent.
Then hook up gen and see what works off the battery and what dosent.
 
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What are the battery switches that are fitted?

On/Off. Only. Or is there one that is. 1 / 2 or both?

The space for the fridge, with the wiring, does it have 110V power supply as well? Is there a switch on the fridge for mains / 12v?

The fridge draws quite a power load, and would by why you are now experiencing this. The house battery needs to be a deep cycle, with enough amp/hour capacity for the period you are not charging/on the hook etc.

Also charger output may need to be checked/confirmed, it may not be keeping up with the draw off the fridge.

Also what temperature setting have you got the fridge on, the colder the setting the more the compressor will need to run to maintain the temperature.


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Thanks, Bt Doctur--that's the simplest "what goes where" testing method I've heard and one I can do solo--WOOT! Not quite following you about hooking up gen next, though, unless you mean simply starting it? So far we know for sure that the cabin outlets, stove/micro, Heat/AC unit, and water heater ONLY work on the generator or shore power, not on battery alone--which appears to be appropriate. (But I think I'm following you regarding determining which battery runs cabin lights, dash lights, bilges, etc.)

IanBat--two battery switches mounted side by side. Slightly different designs....I think switch 1 is 1-2-both but am not positive. I know for certain switch 2 is 1-2-both. Mechanic and I did process of elimination last year and documented that with switch 1 on and switch 2 off, only the port engine will start--starboard engine doesn't start with switch 1 in any position. With switch 1 off and switch 2 in position 1, only port engine starts; position 2 only starboard engine; position Both does fire both. Mechanic recommended leaving switch 1 in position 1 and switch 2 in position 2 at all times, then using switch 2 to help troubleshoot if we ever had a repeat of our starting problems.

All three batteries are Marine/RV 12v deep cycle, group size 31, 675 CCA.

Fridge model we purchased has no switch to change from 110 to 12v--description matched "universal voltage" description of prior model. We saw no outlet, only the two-strand red/black wire combo coming out of the wiring box near the fridge cavity. We didn't dig at the time but I'll open it soon to explore further. Manual suggested coldness setting 3 (range is 0 - 5) for moderate power draw and we've left it there.

Tonight while on shore power, with both fridge breakers off, attempt to flush head elicited no operating sounds at all. I was hoping that 24 hrs on shore power might recharge a house battery if that's the problem--that somehow it had enough power to run the fridge but not give a good enough zap to flush, and that it would recover if I turned off the fridge. I think that's what's confusing me--if the fridge killed the battery that runs the head, shouldn't the fridge also stop working?

Also on shore power tested fridge breaker switch configs....
Helm switch off, cabin switch off = fridge off
Helm switch off, cabin switch on = cabin switch indicator light flickers but fridge off
Helm switch on, cabin switch off = fridge on
Helm switch on, cabin switch on = cabin switch indicator light flickers and fridge on

(I think I tested ship power setting, too--with helm swithc on, fridge ran like a top....I'm just foggy because it was a long workday and this whole situation is quite annoying!)

Thanks much for your help; I appreciate you sharing your knowledge for me to learn new things, even though it may be a slow process to find the right answer. If I can't figure it out by Thu night I'll hope to book my mechanic next week to make sure it's fixed before the holiday weekend!
 
I think there is severalk issues there, I will list them down tonight.

Battery switches and positions being the main. Also batteries....can you give me a brand name on the batteries at, would just like to check their exact specifications. Deep Cycle should not be used for starting engines, ok for the odd jump start, but not continual.

Also by chance does your helm have an "Emergency Start" switch on it?
 
Yes, helm has emergency start switch.

Via the Sea Ray web site I've found the full wiring diagrams, which aren't lay-person friendly; I've found nothing to describe which positions to set switches when considering helm/cabin combinations. Are there any other manuals/diagrams of the things I'm describing? I can't imagine that every DIY boat owner goes through this kind of stuff from scratch every.single.time.

The good news is, I'm coming up on the 12 mo free replacement deadline if these things should have done the job....unless, of course, we determine there's an ID-10-T error at play! ;)
Autocraft Marine / RV 12-Volt Deep Cycle Battery, Group Size 31, 675 CCA
 
Ok , apologies there may be several posts here, I will try and just edit, as I am responding on tapatalk so I need to close my reply, read and add more.

Your batteries I believe are DP, dual purpose....not Deep Cycle.

The idea is that they can do both reasonably well.

That is why they have a CCA rating. Cold cranking Amps....this is the capacity for engine cranking. Pure deep cycle batteries normally only rate AH...Amp Hours, that is how many amps you can draw out over time.

Eg, 200AH...............if you were drawing 10amps, then the battery should last for 20 hours.

Battery Switches.
The description I am understanding from your battery switches, I am assuming someone has tampered with the wiring.

The switch set up I believe is the same as my 330. So I will explain how mine is wired.

Switch One
Off / 1 / 2 / both
Starboard Engine and House battery.
So.......Starboard engine and house power supply (fridge,stereo,etc) are powered out from this switch.
Position 1 draws the power from the Start battery
Position 2 draws the power from the house battery
Both joins the two batteries together, thus drawing both batteries down equally.

The way to use the switch is generally 1 for starting and running, change to 2 when at anchor.

Switch Two
Off/On
Port engine start...fairly self explanatory

Helm emergency start
Between the two Battery Switches there should be an electric solenoid. When you switch the emergency start switch on, you should here that click, if you put your hand on it and get the first mate to switch the emergency switch on, you should feel it click or thud.....it's safe you won't get a shock.
What that switch does is join the port and starboard Start batteries together, just like using jumper leads!
You use it when one battery is flat.
The way to do it, is start the engine with the good battery, warm that motor up,for a couple of minutes (replaces some of the charge you just took out starting it) then switch the emergency start switch.
Bring the running engine up to around 1500RPM, so the alternator is supplying charge, then start the engine with the flat battery, wait around a minute, then switch the emergency start off.

Now back to your issues.
1) get your Selector switches checked out as I have outlined above

2) from the battery specs you have given me I can't find the AH ratings. Searching our battery suppliers site, a US intimidator battery that we use, in Dual Purpose has a CCA of 800a which is quite a bit higher than yours, it has an amp hour rating of 105AH. So I am suspecting your AH is less, personally for a house battery, I like around 200AH as I said that is personal others may agree or disagree.

3) I think you said you have 2 circuit breakers for the fridge? Is one of those in the 120v distribution board? If so that should be for a 120V power supply for the fridge.
So asking about your fridge slightly differently than I did before. Is the fridge you purchased dual voltage? Does it have a 120V power lead on it as well as 12V power leads? As if it has I presume from your previous reply the 120V is not plugged in

Which leads me to number 4

4) Battery Charger. What sort of charger is fitted, what capacity output is it.

I am suspecting, the fridge is running off the battery, they tend to be wired direct to the battery bypassing the battery switches. And the charger may not have enough capacity to run the fridge, as such it is not bringing the batteries up to charge and over several days more charge is coming out of the battery than going in.

I hope I haven't been too long winded or confused you, I have tried to write this in lay mans language as much as possible



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IanBat, your descriptions are great--I'm following what you're saying in my common sense brain and will reference this thread on next visit to boat tonight or tomorrow to match it up with what we see in real life. I wouldn't be surprised at all if wires have been changed up through the years since it's an older boat, and possibly multiple times--part of why I've been searching for info on how it should be so we can get a fresh start. We may or may not be able to restore best configs, depending on how out of whack things are, but we're going to try.

Fridge is universal--just the two-wire/red-black lead, no additional connections. Supposed to be relying on the boat wiring/switches to either automatically or manually flip between 120 and 12. Will check into that again, though, especially to see what additional wiring or outlet may be in the fridge cavity/sink area. May be a situation where the fridge wiring doesn't match the boat wiring 100%....and then we'll be tampering with the wiring on purpose!

dpmulvey--pics of battery arrangement, selection switches, helm/cabin control panels and such?
 
...dpmulvey--pics of battery arrangement, selection switches, helm/cabin control panels and such?

Yes and of the fridge. If I know what it is, I may be able to make some headway. Some are not 12/120. Some are 12VDC only. The battery switches really have me perplexed.
 
Fridge is Norcold nr751bb. When I ordered through West Marine, I remember asking whether I needed to order the cord that's mentioned as a separate accessory and the associate did some catalog and online review and said no. I'm reading some online reviews that assume otherwise and remark that one wasn't in the shipping container. I guess that means I'm searching for an outlet in fridge cavity/sink area and a corresponding port/whatever on the fridge where one would attach? If that's the case, we would leave the direct wiring intact, add the power cord, and then deal with switches again to learn which config runs us on shore vs. away?

Power Requirements: 12V/24V DC; 120V/220V AC, 60/50Hz
Draw: 3.75A @ 12V DC; 1.87A @ 24V DC
Case Material: Galvanized steel cabinet with foam insulation Door: Reversible; Accepts insert panels
Approvals: UL/C-UL 250, CE, ABYC-Ignition protected, AS/NZ-C Tick and A Tick, NSF
Warranty: Two-year limited
20 15/16"H x 19 1/2"W x 21 1/16"D (23 1/4"D flush mounted)
 
That is an A/C-D/C fridge which is normal on a boat. If both power sources are on then the fridge will use the AC first and switch to DC if you lose power.
 
The wiring into the fridge though needs 2 Seperate leads. The red and black are your 12V supply only.

It sounds like you are missing the 120V lead, which you have alluded to by your google searches.

In the fridge cavity their should be a 120V power point. On my 330 I can see and get to that power point, through the cupboard under the sink, it is up above the vacuum tank behind the fridge


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The wiring into the fridge though needs 2 Seperate leads. The red and black are your 12V supply only.

It sounds like you are missing the 120V lead, which you have alluded to by your google searches.

In the fridge cavity their should be a 120V power point. On my 330 I can see and get to that power point, through the cupboard under the sink, it is up above the vacuum tank behind the fridge


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There's a box/cover under the galley sink, from which the 12v supply wires come. Will look there for additional leads.

I made a PSA to my girlfriends that we're unlikely to have a functional head this weekend--I agree that we probably have more than one issue, so even if we correct the fridge wiring or take it completely offline, that's unlikely to solve cure the head flushing problem
 
Fridge is Norcold nr751bb. When I ordered through West Marine, I remember asking whether I needed to order the cord that's mentioned as a separate accessory and the associate did some catalog and online review and said no. I'm reading some online reviews that assume otherwise and remark that one wasn't in the shipping container. I guess that means I'm searching for an outlet in fridge cavity/sink area and a corresponding port/whatever on the fridge where one would attach? If that's the case, we would leave the direct wiring intact, add the power cord, and then deal with switches again to learn which config runs us on shore vs. away?

Power Requirements: 12V/24V DC; 120V/220V AC, 60/50Hz
Draw: 3.75A @ 12V DC; 1.87A @ 24V DC
Case Material: Galvanized steel cabinet with foam insulation Door: Reversible; Accepts insert panels
Approvals: UL/C-UL 250, CE, ABYC-Ignition protected, AS/NZ-C Tick and A Tick, NSF
Warranty: Two-year limited
20 15/16"H x 19 1/2"W x 21 1/16"D (23 1/4"D flush mounted)

Just did some googling on that fridge.

Yes, you need the Seperate 120V lead.

Presently the way your fridge is wired, it is drawing off a battery all the time even on shore power.

The spec on that fridge is 3.78a on 12v. A good charger should keep up with that.

But as discussed, would suggest you have some wiring issues in the battery switches, and need to check the charger output.


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Picking off the issues one by one....WOOT! I think we'll opt to disconnect the fridge until we get a cord, to eliminate one variable and maybe, just maybe, get the head working again.
First Mate will be there tonight for two pairs of hands to check out the other situations, and I'll be able to take pics so we have a trail.
 
Go to an RV place vs. West Marine. Same fridge and parts will be cheaper. RV service techs and sales folk seem to know their product better than WM. See if WM price matches. Maybe you can get some $$$$$ back.
 
Thanks for the tip. Making rounds locally to figure out which store teams are the best--had gone to an RV store first before purchasing a fridge and unfortunately it wasn't very interested in discussing the boating side of the RV/marine coin. Boogers! I know that won't be the case everywhere, though.

Still networking at the marina, as well--to find folks like you all who seem to have reliable information and offer reasonable suggestions rather than bubble gum and chicken wire!
 

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