Anyone Change from An Open Array Radar to a Dome?

Yeah. Already decided on the Garmin. Plus a 943xsv. I don’t need anything serious. Just something “cool” and may help in very rare circumstances of reduced visibility. Due to the dog and the admiral, I’m a very fair wether boater. :)

If that is the case then get the 18, as mentioned BOE has Garmin on sale right now. If you read through that thread, I am on the fence with the 18 or 24 because of what I already have. But in your case the 18 would be perfect, it is a great radar antenna
 
You know, I've always felt that if I had an "accident", and my boat is equipped with radar (which it is), and the radar is not on at the time of the accident, that my percentage of responsibilty of the accident as deemed by the USCG would go up because I was intentionally NOT using a piece of safety equipment that I had on board. I do not know it this is in fact the way things would go, BUT I don NOT want to risk it. Boat operating: Radar ON....regardless of open or closed array.

Just my $0.02

Jaybeaux
I can see your point and agree to have the safety features operational but the only mandatory piece of navigational safety equipment is the VHF. Consider -
USCG - Sir, what safety equipment was in operation when the incident occurred.
Captain - Sonar, Radar, AIS, VHF
USCG - Were you monitoring the equipment when the incident occurred?
Captain - Yes
USCG - Did you not see the impending incident unfold?
Captain - I was scanning the equipment but primarily visually navigating.
USCG - So you had all of the ship's navigational features operational and did not take note an impending incident?
 
@Golfman25 - A choice should be more pragmatic in that what type of boating are you into? Do you need to see separation of markers or if there are a lot of little fishing boats around the markers do you need to see the separation there? Do you boat at dusk or in the dark, fog? Offshore fishing? Modern radar systems are amazing; what a six foot open array gave in the early 90's a 24 inch digital gives today. Yet still the size of the scanner antenna is what provides target separation - just technically can't get around that fact.
From a look on the boat perspective, I don't think it makes a tinkers damn.
Tom
 
I can see your point and agree to have the safety features operational but the only mandatory piece of navigational safety equipment is the VHF. Consider -
USCG - Sir, what safety equipment was in operation when the incident occurred.
Captain - Sonar, Radar, AIS, VHF
USCG - Were you monitoring the equipment when the incident occurred?
Captain - Yes
USCG - Did you not see the impending incident unfold?
Captain - I was scanning the equipment but primarily visually navigating.
USCG - So you had all of the ship's navigational features operational and did not take note an impending incident?

I don't know how they'd prove your radar was off at the time of an accident but the use of radar is not entirely optional "if fitted and operational". I'd expect the USCG would be pretty specific when inquiring about the use of it since the Rules call it out directly.

In accordance with Rule 7 (b) (Risk of collision), proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
 
I don't know how they'd prove your radar was off at the time of an accident but the use of radar is not entirely optional "if fitted and operational". I'd expect the USCG would be pretty specific when inquiring about the use of it since the Rules call it out directly.

In accordance with Rule 7 (b) (Risk of collision), proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.
Good point on the "optional" statement.
 
What do your collision warnings look like? Do you get false warnings when traveling though tight areas?
 
So one of my winter projects is to update my radar. Currently an old Raymarine open array with the old green screen. Boat is 370 sundancer. Mostly a coastal lake Michigan cruiser. Thinking of the Garmin 18 inch Fantom dome. Too small, look silly? Can I save the mount? Anchor light? Anything? Thoughts? Thanks in advance.
If you’re trying to decide between the 18 inch and 24 inch dome, go for the 24 inch. I’ve had both the 18 inch and 24 inch Garmin Fantom and the 24 inch works noticeably better for target separation and picking up smaller objects. I currently have the 18 inch on my 37 foot boat, and it does look just a tad small. But more importantly, as others have said, is the functionality and the edge to that goes to the 24 inch.
 
What do your collision warnings look like? Do you get false warnings when traveling though tight areas?

The collision warnings are only going to come from AIS and/or the radars MARPA settings. To answer you question, they will go from Green to Red on Garmin units. Take a look at the thread link I posted in the beginning of this thread. There are screen shots in there that depict this.
 
The collision warnings are only going to come from AIS and/or the radars MARPA settings. To answer you question, they will go from Green to Red on Garmin units. Take a look at the thread link I posted in the beginning of this thread. There are screen shots in there that depict this.
I’m sorry. I meant What are your alarm settings or triggers to notify you.
 
I’m sorry. I meant What are your alarm settings or triggers to notify you.
Setting the alarms without filters can overwhelming. It leads to lots of MARPA collision alarms and just makes you want to have no alarms.

I have my MARPA set to alert only when vessels are approaching. I forget the exact settings, but they are detailed in the other thread.
 
I’m sorry. I meant What are your alarm settings or triggers to notify you.

The triggers are AIS and MARPA headings that are on a collision course with in a certain time/distance that you set. There is an alarm output that can drive a sounder or in my case an input of a Maretron RIM100 that drive my system monitor. That output wire is switched so I can only have it on when on a long cruise and off when close to marina's and the like, the screen(s) will still light up but no sound. The time and distance are set on the MFD's.
 
The triggers are AIS and MARPA headings that are on a collision course with in a certain time/distance that you set. There is an alarm output that can drive a sounder or in my case an input of a Maretron RIM100 that drive my system monitor. That output wire is switched so I can only have it on when on a long cruise and off when close to marina's and the like, the screen(s) will still light up but no sound. The time and distance are set on the MFD's.
I like how you did that. I ran the alarm grounding wire from the MFD's to separate Piezo buzzers around the boat which the noise is annoying at times when not needed. From a Garmin aspect the AIS alarms are distracting. A big banner appears along the bottom of the screens and the integrated alarm sounds as well as all of my buzzers. Going through Port Canaveral for example the AIS alarms probably twenty times on docked boats. The AIS can be squelched but that must be done every time the MFD is powered up. Generally, around ports and marinas it is annoying and NVA from my perspective. So I have a switch that can turn the AIS off or receive only or receive and transmit. MARPA is a much more useful tool as it addresses all targets that the radar picks up, not just those vessels that have active AIS. MARPA can also be tuned based upon distance, speed, and closest approach; and, the system will save those settings.
 
I like how you did that. I ran the alarm grounding wire from the MFD's to separate Piezo buzzers around the boat which the noise is annoying at times when not needed. From a Garmin aspect the AIS alarms are distracting. A big banner appears along the bottom of the screens and the integrated alarm sounds as well as all of my buzzers. Going through Port Canaveral for example the AIS alarms probably twenty times on docked boats. The AIS can be squelched but that must be done every time the MFD is powered up. Generally, around ports and marinas it is annoying and NVA from my perspective. So I have a switch that can turn the AIS off or receive only or receive and transmit. MARPA is a much more useful tool as it addresses all targets that the radar picks up, not just those vessels that have active AIS. MARPA can also be tuned based upon distance, speed, and closest approach; and, the system will save those settings.

Yeah it works well connected that way. I actually have two alarm's connected, the fore mentioned MARPA from the Garmin and the AIS from the Vesper. They both have individual RIM100 inputs. But to your point, MARPA is much more useful from an alarm stand point. The AIS is great to be able to use DSC calling or just vessel info in general.
 
If you’re trying to decide between the 18 inch and 24 inch dome, go for the 24 inch. I’ve had both the 18 inch and 24 inch Garmin Fantom and the 24 inch works noticeably better for target separation and picking up smaller objects. I currently have the 18 inch on my 37 foot boat, and it does look just a tad small. But more importantly, as others have said, is the functionality and the edge to that goes to the 24 inch.

This thread inspired me to update my records on what radar's actually cost these days. :)

If you're up to a 24" fantom dome you're only $1200 away from a 4' HD array w/pedestal. Some guys are burning that much fuel every other weekend.

With savings being somewhat minimized at this point, isn't the open array still more compelling?
 
This thread inspired me to update my records on what radar's actually cost these days. :)

If you're up to a 24" fantom dome you're only $1200 away from a 4' HD array w/pedestal. Some guys are burning that much fuel every other weekend.

With savings being somewhat minimized at this point, isn't the open array still more compelling?
Absolutely - it's all about target separation, right?
 
This thread inspired me to update my records on what radar's actually cost these days. :)

If you're up to a 24" fantom dome you're only $1200 away from a 4' HD array w/pedestal. Some guys are burning that much fuel every other weekend.

With savings being somewhat minimized at this point, isn't the open array still more compelling?
Not necessarily. For one, may boats would need to upgrade a mast as well - my mast won't accept an open array and that would be a significant cost.

Also let's be sure we're comparing apples to apples. You're talking about going from a 24" digital dome to a 48" magnetron open array. These are very different technologies, and by going the magnetron array you loose many of the benefits of digital. Those include the Doppler return (motion scope), lower power usage, closer-in detection (like 20 feet), and others.

If your ONLY concern is target separation then perhaps it's valid. But for many recreational boaters the features of a digital dome would outweigh the single benefit of a magnetron open array for a higher cost. I count myself in that group. Maybe if you are really focused on bird detection for fishing a magnetron open array makes more sense over a dome.

Now let's compare the costs of the digital Fantom models
  • 24x Dome: $3000 50w power 3.7 degree beam
  • 54 Open Array: $6200 50w power 1.8 degree beam
  • 124 Open Array: $8200 120w power 1.8 degree beam
If you want to go from a Fantom Dome to Fantom Open, the minimum jump is $3200 (a 104% cost increase) for the same power output. The gain is only in the target separation and having a cool spinning radar.
 
Not necessarily. For one, may boats would need to upgrade a mast as well - my mast won't accept an open array and that would be a significant cost.

Also let's be sure we're comparing apples to apples. You're talking about going from a 24" digital dome to a 48" magnetron open array. These are very different technologies, and by going the magnetron array you loose many of the benefits of digital. Those include the Doppler return (motion scope), lower power usage, closer-in detection (like 20 feet), and others.

If your ONLY concern is target separation then perhaps it's valid. But for many recreational boaters the features of a digital dome would outweigh the single benefit of a magnetron open array for a higher cost. I count myself in that group. Maybe if you are really focused on bird detection for fishing a magnetron open array makes more sense over a dome.

Now let's compare the costs of the digital Fantom models
  • 24x Dome: $3000 50w power 3.7 degree beam
  • 54 Open Array: $6200 50w power 1.8 degree beam
  • 124 Open Array: $8200 120w power 1.8 degree beam
If you want to go from a Fantom Dome to Fantom Open, the minimum jump is $3200 (a 104% cost increase) for the same power output. The gain is only in the target separation and having a cool spinning radar.

I assume your points are 100% valid. I'm far from an expert, I'm barely informed. Based on my initial post it might not shock you that aesthetics will be point #1 on my decision making matrix when the time comes to replace my existing Raymarine 4' open array.

On BOE Marine the 24" Garmin Fantom is $3,000. The GMR 424 XHD2 w/pedestal is $4,200. Those are the two I was referencing with the $1200 step-up to an array.

The XHD2:
upload_2022-11-7_10-30-54.png
 
I assume your points are 100% valid. I'm far from an expert, I'm barely informed. Based on my initial post it might not shock you that aesthetics will be point #1 on my decision making matrix when the time comes to replace my existing Raymarine 4' open array.

On BOE Marine the 24" Garmin Fantom is $3,000. The GMR 424 XHD2 w/pedestal is $4,200. Those are the two I was referencing with the $1200 step-up to an array.

The XHD2:
View attachment 136361
I figured you were looking at the xHD2. It's generally thought of as a good unit. It just is a very different technology than a modern pulse-compression digital radar like the Fantom series.

If I could make a somewhat crude comparison, it's like looking at an iPhone 14 then noticing you could get a bigger screen iPhone 8 XL for a little more. Sure it has a bigger screen if that's your main objective, but there's a bunch of stuff under the hood of that iPhone 14 that offers meaningfully more functions - even with a smaller screen.

The doppler shift function alone is worth staying with a Fantom dome vs. an xHD2 open array. It will color code the returns to visually indicated if the target is stationary, moving away, or moving toward you. On a number of occasions this function has helped me sort out what targets were doing and prioritize what I need to watch for. Think about a sailboat in marginal lighting that you can't visually determine if it's heading toward or away from you. The doppler shift tells you this so you can better decide on which side to pass.
 
Dome here and I like the look. Started using it all the time recently from comments on another thread here.

 
OK. So here is a secondary question. Best way to install to make it easy to take down an put up. They had to take the old one down to transit to the storage facility. As this will likely be a yearly requirement, I am looking for an easy (but sturdy) setup to make the short transport.

I am thinking of just using a wedge (no mount) which would be sealed with 4200 to the arch, and then using some type of rubber seal on the bolts to keep the water out. Would inspect and possibly replace yearly.
 

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