A few 460 problems

Discussion in 'Sport Yachts/Yachts' started by Graham Lorimer, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. Graham Lorimer

    Graham Lorimer Member

    436
    Feb 13, 2009
    Boat in Sant Carles, Spain. I live in Cheltenham,
    Sundancer 460 2002
    Volvo 480 HP
    Raymarine Electronics
    Avon 320DL RIB
    Yamaha 25HP 4 Stroke
    Volvo 74 TAMD EDC
    I posted the queries below on the 460 owners thread, but had no replies. probably all issues are fairly common to Sea Ray models, hoping for some guidance.

    Can somebody please tell me what the GFI supplies power to (I think it is called that, it is a circuit breaker with a reset button on it) that is located under the Cockpit hand basin.

    When I turn it on, after about 4 hours, it blows the trip on the pontoon and in the engine room, and sometimes also the trip that supplies power to the whole length of the pontoon, about 20 boats.

    I can not find anything that is not working with it turned off, but I guess it supplies to something, and that must be where my problem lies.

    Any advice gratefully received, I am on the boat for another 5 days and would love to cure this issue.

    Second question, has anybody renewed the fabric in the shade that pulls over the hatch in the saloon, the mossie netting is fine,but the fabric shade is very stained and I would like to change it.

    Third question, can anybody make a suggestion as to why the Black water tanks always show as empty on the light readouts in the Heads and on the DB Board? No matter how full the tanks are, they always show empty, and I was hoping for some guidence before I start "digging around" down there.

    Graham
     
  2. doozie

    doozie Active Member

    509
    Dec 6, 2007
    MIDDLE RIVE MD.
    46 sundancer 2001
    3126B 450hp Cats
    It is possible that the GFI does not supply anything, it probably just protects that one receptacle. Most likely it's just bad.with it being located where it is it get damp/wet, after time they fail. I have that same outlet but mine is fed from a GFI in the engine room. As far as the tank monitors they to are probably bad, i just replaced mine this year same proble. they are 3 tubes with a sensor on the end that move as the tank gets filled. They are located in the top of the tank on a treaded cap. You can unscew the cap and pull the whole assembly out. Bob
     
  3. tdschafer

    tdschafer Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2009
    Long island , NY
    1997 330 sundancer
    twin 454's, Carb, V-Drives
  4. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    Boatless in WA
    No motor
    doozie, I think I have at least one bad GFI receptacle. If I replace it, does it need to be a special "marine" version or will a standard GFI receptacle work?
     
  5. Rich122

    Rich122 Member

    295
    Aug 7, 2007
    MYC-Stony Point, NY
    '10 540DA, t/t:Amanzi350-40hp
    Raymarine G150s HD MFDs/48kw Radar/DSM300 Sounder
    Cummins QSC8.3-600s
    Pod Drive/Skyhook
    21.5kw Onan
    The GFI receptacle is your gournd fault for the boat since you are in a wet enviorment. You should have at least 1 on each system. port and starboard. They are usually found inside a cabinet or under a counter. Each controls the grounding of that side's system. You will note Sea Ray puts nice decorative outlets (the grey ones) in the salons, and stateroom, and heafds for show but since this is a boat they all need to be fualt protective. you may also find the GIf in the head cabinet. If your are tripping this one, I bet you have no power from any of the other plugs on that side. Also, you may find you have only partial power to the side. Check to see what is plugged into the side of the system, unplug them and if the breaker continues to trip, it may be the GIF itself went bad. It's a trial and error thing when tracing electrical shorts.

    Rich
     
  6. tdschafer

    tdschafer Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2009
    Long island , NY
    1997 330 sundancer
    twin 454's, Carb, V-Drives
    "When I turn it on, after about 4 hours, it blows the trip on the pontoon and in the engine room, and sometimes also the trip that supplies power to the whole length of the pontoon, about 20 boats."

    Guys,

    It sounds like his outlet is blowing power to the whole dock!! I'm assuming that is what he is inferring when he says "Pontoon". I could be wrong but, I don't know that a trip to the ground fault circuit alone can blow the whole dock's power out. There seems to be a short in the system somewhere. In addition, why does it take approx. 4 hours to trip? I think there is more to this problem than just a faulty outlet.

    GFC,

    To your question, yes you can replace the GFIC outlet with a standard one purchsed in the hardware store or Home Depot. As far as I know, there is no special "marine" version.

    Disclaimer: I am not, nor do I claim to be a Licensed Electrician. No advice, real or inferred should be taken as coming from a licensed electrician, nor do I play one on TV!!!:grin:
     
  7. Rich122

    Rich122 Member

    295
    Aug 7, 2007
    MYC-Stony Point, NY
    '10 540DA, t/t:Amanzi350-40hp
    Raymarine G150s HD MFDs/48kw Radar/DSM300 Sounder
    Cummins QSC8.3-600s
    Pod Drive/Skyhook
    21.5kw Onan
    I missed the pontoon thing.. I don't think a GIF would trip the whole dock, more like the dock pedistal surging and popping his breaker.
    While he looks at his boat just to make sure, I would have the marina check the shore power pedistal, maybe a main power line is chaffed under the dock from movement
     
  8. Graham Lorimer

    Graham Lorimer Member

    436
    Feb 13, 2009
    Boat in Sant Carles, Spain. I live in Cheltenham,
    Sundancer 460 2002
    Volvo 480 HP
    Raymarine Electronics
    Avon 320DL RIB
    Yamaha 25HP 4 Stroke
    Volvo 74 TAMD EDC
    Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

    I will be back at the boat in 2 weeks so will disconnect and dismantle the GFi and the socket next to it and see what gives, I did notice it has been a little damp in there.

    By Pontoon I mean that whole section of the dock, so when something goes wrong, it is significant.

    The only item I can see that GFi supplying is the power socket next to it, I will disconnect that socket also and see if that makes a difference, maybe that is where the damp is having an effect.

    Thanks

    Graham
     
  9. HUMPH

    HUMPH Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2009
    SF BAY AREA
    2003 410DA
    2009 Walker Bay 13’
    CAT 3126TA's 350HP/
    50HP Honda
    If you are tripping much of the dock you have a fault condition in your boat. Your GFI receptacle is most likely bad and it upstreams to the main breaker which will also be ground fault protected. You need to have this fault located and repaired before you cause any further problems. Unplug any appliances and work to isolate the issue after replacing the GFI receptacle. As stated previously, a standard GFI receptacle is all you need but you should install a 20 amp model that will be more robust. It does not take much of a fault to trip a ground fault so it can be a shorted motor or a single strand of wire touching ground to cause this.
     
  10. sea salt

    sea salt New Member

    102
    Jul 9, 2008
    Long Island
    300DA
    Twin 7.4 Mercs
    I doubt that you are tripping the whole dock with a bad GFCI receptacle. Most likely, it is just the oposite. Something on the Dock is causing your tower and/or GFCI to trip. Even if you had a direct short in your shore cable, you should never trip more than your own tower's breaker. Talk with the marina and have them check their stuff. Or, unplug from shore power and run on genie and see if you still have an issue. That will tell you if the problem is on your boat or not.
     
  11. doozie

    doozie Active Member

    509
    Dec 6, 2007
    MIDDLE RIVE MD.
    46 sundancer 2001
    3126B 450hp Cats
    Ok, All good points, I am a master electrician, own the buisness,TD I loved your disclaimer, If the circuit breaker is a 20 amp then the GFI should be, If it's a 15 amp then 15 amp is fine, Most the circuits on a boat are 15 amp. There is no GFI protection on the main. If you are tripping the pier, the GFI could be doing it. If you change it and it still trips you need to unplug everything and see if it trips, if not go device by device till it trips. Bob
     
  12. sea salt

    sea salt New Member

    102
    Jul 9, 2008
    Long Island
    300DA
    Twin 7.4 Mercs
    The GFCI should only trip the breaker in the boats panel. It is of less rated amperage than the 30 or 50 amp breaker at the tower. It should not trip the towers breaker and definitely not bring down the entire dock.
     
  13. tdschafer

    tdschafer Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2009
    Long island , NY
    1997 330 sundancer
    twin 454's, Carb, V-Drives
    Doozie,
    I am glad that you liked it. With that recent thread of non-experts giving advice I didn't want any confusion. As far as the rating of the GFIC outlet I agree that it should match the breaker. If he has trouble locating the breaker would the gauge of the wire tell the amps? Where I live 20 amp circuits use 12/3 wire and 15 amps are run with 14/3. I assume that this is standard around the country but again, I am not an expert!
     
  14. HUMPH

    HUMPH Well-Known Member

    Nov 4, 2009
    SF BAY AREA
    2003 410DA
    2009 Walker Bay 13’
    CAT 3126TA's 350HP/
    50HP Honda
    Correction, the GFCI trips when there is a ground fault in the load connected to the outlet OR in a downstream outlet. If the GFI has failed the next GFI may be in the dock breaker. If the dock breaker is not a GFI breaker, there is a different issue at hand and I agree you should have the marina check their power.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  15. doozie

    doozie Active Member

    509
    Dec 6, 2007
    MIDDLE RIVE MD.
    46 sundancer 2001
    3126B 450hp Cats
    Yes, 12 GA. wire would be 20a, 14 Ga, would be 15 amp, and Hump is correct, A GFI would not trip on a short circuit or overload situation, your C/B would handle that. Bob
     
  16. sea salt

    sea salt New Member

    102
    Jul 9, 2008
    Long Island
    300DA
    Twin 7.4 Mercs
    Humph/Doozie:

    I agree with what you guys are saying about how the GFCI normally works. However, this discussion was talking more about a GFCI receptacle that is possibly malfunctioning.



    Ths is where I disagree. I still don't see how a GFCI, good or bad, could trip the pier. There are two CBs in line with the GFCI that should trip well before the 'Pier' or the entire dock would trip.
     
  17. Graham Lorimer

    Graham Lorimer Member

    436
    Feb 13, 2009
    Boat in Sant Carles, Spain. I live in Cheltenham,
    Sundancer 460 2002
    Volvo 480 HP
    Raymarine Electronics
    Avon 320DL RIB
    Yamaha 25HP 4 Stroke
    Volvo 74 TAMD EDC
    Again, thanks for all the input.

    The boat has a 220 volt system.

    The on / off switch on one line coming into the boat (starboard from memory, located above the Genset in the engine room) always trips down/off, the circuit breaker on the pedastal that I plug into usually trips off, and then sometimes the trip that supplies my pedastal on the dockside main panel also trips.

    I will dismantle the GFi and the socket next to it and check for damp or wiring issues, and will take it from there

    Graham
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  18. doozie

    doozie Active Member

    509
    Dec 6, 2007
    MIDDLE RIVE MD.
    46 sundancer 2001
    3126B 450hp Cats
    I said it could be the GFI, because the internal circuit boards could be the problem, wouldn't show as a ground fault, but a short circuit, all dues to corrosion, wet, ETC.
     
  19. sea salt

    sea salt New Member

    102
    Jul 9, 2008
    Long Island
    300DA
    Twin 7.4 Mercs
    I would think that even if the GFCI presented as a dead short that the circuit breaker at the panel inside the boat would trip before either the circuit breaker in the transom tripped or the circuit breaker in the pedestal tripped and certainly before the entire dock lost power.
     
  20. tdschafer

    tdschafer Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2009
    Long island , NY
    1997 330 sundancer
    twin 454's, Carb, V-Drives
    Maybe it's an oddball type problem related to the 220 VAC circuit. One leg could be tripping the other or something like that. I'm glad my boat is 110 VAC, it's a little less complicated I think!!
     

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