'98 450 vs 2000 460

DaFish

Active Member
Mar 11, 2011
663
Manitowoc, WI - Lake Michigan
Boat Info
1999 370 DA
Engines
7.4 MPI Horizon Merc w/ V-Drives
We are searching for our next Dancer and are falling for the late '90's 450 with Cat 3126 engines. Also coming into view are 2000 460's with Cummins power. Most of the 460's are coming with a bow thruster and the 450's are not. The cabin layout's are similar and the cockpit seating in the 460's removes the wrap around seat to the back of the helm seating.

There are member of this fine forum that attest to the late '90's 450 as being one of the best that SR created, and after spending time in them (we have walked through many boats of all types in our search), I can understand why.

From those of you with more experience with these two boats than I, can you share the pro's and con's of the two? Our point of comparison is our '99 370 with 7.4l gassers.
 
Are you a troll just trying to get in between Frank and I? I’m just kidding but both are great boats. I’ll be as upfront as possible. And Mr Frank Webster will chime in shortly.

You don’t need a thruster on either of these boats so don’t let that influence your decision.

The 450 pros first:
Storage is immense. The seat cushions all open and there is a ton of space for storage. The 460 has fancy sliding sofa's which take away much of the space (cockpit, salon, and mid cabin)

The hull is super strong, it is literally called the "icebreaker" hull. It has very few if any portlights/portholes. Instead the portlights are in the deck structure.

It turns on a dime, the engines are so far apart you can set up a cocktail table inbetween them, this is very helpful around the dock and is exactly why you won’t need a thruster.

The weight is shifted forward where possible so it doesn't have a bow up attitude and planes easily. Fuel tanks are amidship.

The swim platform is low to the water and has a built in "seat" This is handy if you are using it to haul a dinghy or swimming.

460 Pros

Styling is updated, after 2001 hardtop is available.
Aforementioned sliding sunpad in the cockpit, salon, and mid cabin is nice but does cost storage space.
A washer was added (lots of opinions on this, but if you do small loads it works great).

The portlights/portholes have been moved into the hull, this makes it a little less cave like as the windows are much lower.

Handles like a dream, but I think the 450 engines are a few inches further apart, still no need for a thruster

240V systems on board instead of all 115V which is less amp draw.

Engine hatch on 460 is much better placed and access is easier to the engine room and I think the engine room is just easier to maneuver in general

General Differences, not pros/cons

Styling, the 450 has a lower radar arch, more squared rear end and different gunnel walkways (walk on both up to the sunpads)

450 has U shaped seating and a fold down boarding step on the Port side, the 460 has molded boarding steps on either side which can be nice at different docks.

Cat Vs Cummins Power, this one can be debated a thousand times over, I like both and both have their strengths and weaknesses. If you need in depth opinions we can hash it out, but honestly I think both options are good power plants for these boats.

450 has 2 different layouts, port versus stbd galley and different mid cabin where 460's are all the same. Until you get to 2003 when a tv cabinet was added to the port wall in the salon.

Cockpit/cabin entry doors are different, you make the call on which is best, I'm just pointing it out.

Tables in Cockpit and Salon on the 450 are fixed, both tables on the 460 are movable.



I'm sure I missed some, I'll try to think more and update...

A few random notes...

The lights in theses boats suck... seriously. The Lumitec Mirage is an awesome light and fits perfectly, can't recommend them enough. The engine room lights are just as bad, I used Lumitec Ibiza but there a 1000 options. The 450 is getting almost impossible to find in decent condition, it's just that its a little older and good examples are tough to find, I spent months looking for a prime example for a buddy. Electronics will most-likely need replaced in both, so if you find a boat with new ones, then it's a win. Deferred Maintenance is the biggest problem, use this forum and we can help give you an accurate idea of what it will take to get any/all of those jobs p to snuff.

460’s seem to to be appreciating at a rapid rate so seems a good time to buy either.

Good luck in the hunt! Hopefully I am some help!
 
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Glad to be of help! Sometimes I wonder if anyone cares. I should probably post more as I am now pretty much a 460 expert. Thanks for following along! I love CSR
 
A few minor additions to Josh’s commentary:

I have a lot of time in 460’s but more in the 450 because I own one. I am sure you can get accustomed to it but the 460 has a significant bow rise that can give you several seconds of a blind spot dead ahead. This is a problem for me in this are because of all the tourist traffic on the water. They act like they are on a pond, have no idea what the rules of the road are and generally drive all over the place. I am conservative and take no chances on the water so I keep the 460’s I run at a fast idle until I get to open water.

The engine room on the 450 is to die for. Easy for 2 full grown adults to pass between the engines and actually get something done without getting in each other’s way.

I helped 2 people search for 450’s this year. I must have looked at 15 sets of photos and josh is right. Nice 450’s are scarce just due to deferred maintenance. I can’t explain that either because the 450 is extremely easy to care for.

I think the published price guides are off the mark on these boat as well. The guides are based on actual sales and most 450’s are below average boats. I’ve got one of the nicer 450’s around and if she were for sale, I would never take what the price guides indicate.

You can’t make a mistake with either boat. Just buy a nice one.
 
Thank you both for the guidance - this was the response and answers I was looking for. We are looking at a '98 450 that is in decent shape with cosmetic work necessary - it has a cherry interior and none of the cherry has lifted! Corners and curved pieces are perfect. You could eat off the engine room floor, but the canvas and electronics are tired. I was blown away by the amount of storage. It was used as a day boat.

The 460 has the newer canvas and electronics, a higher price, did not appear to have the same storage, had a standard cockpit layout with the steps to the forward walk ways as you indicate and is powered by Cummins.

I don't want to start a Honda generator debate in asking Cats vs. Cummins - just comparisons and observations for diesel newbie.

Again, thank you
 
You really don't need the bow thruster as has been posted, But if you want one its no big deal. Had one put in after the 3rd year, $14,000 and two days by Fl. Bow thruster. New canvas, Everything was around $8000 4 years ago. If you find a well cared for one you will not be disappointed. Our boat is the one everyone piles on for the dinner cruise to one of the marinas on the lake because of all the room. Good Luck !!
 
Both cats and Cummins will power these boats fine. The cat engines for the 450 are 3116 and 3126. Frank can comment on them more in depth but both are fine once you make sure you don’t have a soft block.

The 460’s typically have cat 3208 or
Cummins 450 diamonds. The good things about the Cummins is parts are readily available as theses engines are used in all kinds of applications from marine to over the road to gensets to heavy equipment. They are sleeved and can be resleeved in the boat if needed. Their Achilles heel is the raw water cooling system. Most boats of these vintage will need the aftercoolers replaced because they have not been properly serviced and the aftercoolers are 3800.00 each. They are mechanical engines and very simple to operate and maintain. Definitely look at the Cummins 450 thread in this forum. The cat 3208 is a rock solid engine but is fairly rare to find a 460 with the 3208.

Back to deferred maintenance... any boat you find of this vintage is going to need some love. Most likely hoses,clamps, aftercooler service, heat exchanger service... etc. it’s well worth it on a nice older boat but it’s real and it’s a cost you will incur. In my opinion, these are the most important things you can do to the boat because you want a reliable machine to take you where you want to go without trouble. Many owners will ignore the engine room and only make repairs when things break and this is a recipe for a bad boating experience. It’s easy to find these folks as they are the ones complaining something breaks every time they use the boat.


Depending on your choice in electronics it can get expensive. I would estimate 10k for a nice upgrade package including dash panels. Canvas can be had here for 5k. Does the 460 have a hardtop?
 
All good points and I could add that the extra beam on the 460 is noticeable for more living space. You see it mostly in the mid cabin. Josh and Frank are the respective experts here and the biggest advantage of the 460 is when you get a hardtop but it does add weight. It's worth it if you can get one however.
My friend had a '99 450DA, probably one of the last ones built. Really nice boat and faster than my 460 with Cummins 6CTA. I carry more weight and beam and his CAT 3126 seem well suited to the task. I performed much of his 450 maintenance so I know both engine rooms quite well. Yes, the 450 is a tad easier to get around and much of that is due to where they had to place the Glendenning Cablemaster on the 460. However having changed impellers on both starboard engines I can't say that one is easier than the other. They are a PITA if done in place so you drop the pump and change it on the bench. CAT does have a better primer and I like the Racor placement a bit better on the 460 but that's just opinion.
I liked his '99 450 layout with the galley starboard but the washer/dryer took up space until he removed it. Our combo unit hides in the mid cabin where it continues to remain unused, but it's out of the way. Also don't get hung up on the cherry interior thing. We were too before we realized that the maple interior does lighten up "the cave" and we are glad we went that route. But the right boat is the important issue not the shade of the fake wood.
The other point is the bow-rise that Frank talks about. While more noticeable on the 460 (the 450 seems to rise out of the water more easily), it is still very controllable but the boat does carry more weight. I've never thought it to be an issue on our boat. We are at 35,500 lbs with half fuel load. You're just propelling more real estate with similar rated power (She really needs about 50 bhp more per engine IMHO). Every boat I have owned has exhibited bow-rise and this one is just fine. I simply tab down as I power up and never really notice it but I am aware of other boats around while doing that. The horizon is always visible on our boat if I stand while getting on plane, so maybe our weight distribution is more ideal than other 460's? (Maybe it helps to have a bunch of chain in the anchor locker, but again, no problem.)
If you are looking for a 460 you will pay more for a good one of course. Look for a hard top if you can, balsa was deleted in the hullsides part way through 2001 so any potential port or stanchion leaking is less destructive. Bow thrusters are standard on most 460's but the 450 hardly needs one. Hydraulic swim platforms are different on the two boats, if equipped. The 450 had the TNT system which had the advantage of going straight down. Our GHS system is levered like a garbage truck and makes the same beeping noise. It extends aft a bit when deploying but isn't prone to jamming like the TNT. It works well and people still stop on the dock to watch the process.
We purchased our boat through a Sea Ray dealer at five years of age from a first owner who was meticulous and I have kept her to a high standard ever since with a few improvements (like lighting and SMX raw water pumps). I think that if you could find a good example of either boat from a CSR member, you would probably enjoy excellent examples that are well maintained. Both can be ideal boats and I agree that 450's are generally under-valued at present.
Just my thoughts and good luck in your search.
James
 
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It strikes me that the biggest difference in these two models is the Deadrise?
15 vs 19/20. Im no engineer but what I've read, other things being equal, a sharper Deadrise will typically yield a smoother ride. I found that to the true on the smaller boats that we have owned by the same manufacturer. Our last boat had a 22 degree Deadrise and was a very smooth riding boat with the downside being very sensitive to left/right trim.
Any thoughts from the folks who have experience with both?
 
To clarify my bow rise comment, I'm not worried about the horizon; I'm worried about the idiots in pontoon boats of jet skis who think that can cut you off and try to run right in front of you. This may be more of a local problem than a universal one, but there is too much time before the bow drops and the 460 planes out. The 450 seems to just "levitate" up on top of the water....the bow rises slightly but only as high as normally is when the hull has planed out. You are never blind at the helm on a 450 where you are on a 460.

On deadrise, I am fortunate to be in a position where I get to run a lot of different boats of various makes. Once the hull of over about 40', I honestly cannot tell if it has a lot or a little deadrise. I think the difference is that the larger boats don't go everywhere at max cruising speeds. You get in the habit of pulling the throttles back to the most comfortable speed for the passengers and so you don't beat the boat up. While a 460 may plane out and cruise at 28-29 kts, in 4-6 ft seas your passengers will be white knuckling every grab rail they can reach and it is no fun for anyone but the guy driving with his hair on fire. Pull the throttles back to 18-20 kts and that white knuckle ride in 4-6 ft seas becomes very tolerable. If you run a 460 and a 450 in 2-3 ft seasand cruising speeds, there is no discernable difference in the ride, except the 460 is a bit heavier boat.
 
Just to clarify, my 460 cruises around 20 kts. WOT speed is 26-27 kts. I use full down tabs and the bow rise is minimal. I am over 6' tall and stand while going on plane so maybe that helps.
 
Hummm.....just finished going through what your just starting and end up purchasing a 97 450 a few months back (and I traveled the country looking for the right one). It all comes down to personal preference and budget. Both boats are great in there own way and all the differences have been pretty much mentioned. Choose the boat that talks to you, don't make a rash decision, ask tons of questions and take even more pictures. Without the help of Josh my neighbor (were one slip away from each other) and my distant neighbor Frank W who also walked me through a million steps in the hunt for the right boat I probably would have make a bad buying decision. After two failed boat surveys and miles and miles of travel. the right one finally talked to me (Josh & Frank know). I love my 450 and all of the room it offers, but I also love looking at that gleaming 460 docked next to me. Hope the right boat finds you!
 
Glad to be of help! Sometimes I wonder if anyone cares. I should probably post more as I am now pretty much a 460 expert. Thanks for following along! I love CSR

Thanks for your input "notherdecesion". You are so right about this being a great site!
so helpful!
Bob
 
Thanks for your time and conversation Josh (aka notherdecesion). Your input and thoughts/observations/comments were greatly appreciated and valued. It is people like you and Frank that make CSR what it is. Thank you!
 
Glad we can be of help. One addition to Franks comments on dead rise. The 450 is a slightly faster boat at cruising speeds. I have a heavy boat with a hardtop (36k lbs) best cruise rpm is 2200 and at that rpm speed is 17-18knots. The 450 is faster from what I understand. Speed is hard to discuss on the forums and I’ll be upfront about why. Almost all Searay boats are overpropped so someone is likely to chime in saying they can cruise 28 Knts in their 460 but I question whether they can reach wot and have tuned their props. I have (3 times) and I have what’s best for my boat and engine combination. Every boat is slightly different but I have the attitude I want to take care of my boat and engines versus go 2 knts faster. After all it’s boating and I’m rarely in a hurry to get off the water.
 
At time of engine survey (2/2/18) with five people aboard a full water tank and 3/4 full fuel tanks the port engine obtained 2750 rpm the starboard engine was at 2800 and GPS speed was 27.5 knots/31.6 MPH. Currently with not the cleanest bottom 2200 rpm yields 20 knots.
 
Just to keep clear. OhBrian has Cat 3126’s with 425hp.
 

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