58 Sedan Bridge Official Thread

Awesome post Brian!

I was wondering about the possible interval differences from seasonal use in the Northeast.

What is your average seasonal hours on the MANs?
 
Thank you Brian, great information. Very good point, once you get to a 58ft boat with 1800 HP it has to be more than my 44 with QSC 500s.
 
Just to add a little flavor to Brian’s comments on northeast maintenance vs. southern climates. One step further is the ease and frequency of maintenance for those of us boating in freshwater. My MAN certified mechanic out of Wisconsin inspects cores and always has me monitoring engine data to determine how “deep” to go with maintenance. My boat is a 2005 with just over 400 hours on it. This summer we are going to check and adjust valve clearances and at the same time update the valve cover gaskets to the newer design to eliminate a few nuisance drips.

Also, related to annual services; oil, filters, and oil samples, for mains, generator, and gears, as well as all fuel filters, racors, and new impellers, labor and travel time is around $2,500 - $3,000. Samples have always been clear on all components.

Bottom line, don’t be afraid of MAN’s. There are thousands of them out there in the recreational marine market. My buddy in Florida has 5,000 hours on his sportfish and has only replaced injectors in addition to the suggested maintenance.
 
Awesome post Brian!

I was wondering about the possible interval differences from seasonal use in the Northeast.

What is your average seasonal hours on the MANs?

I only average about 50 hours per year. The interesting point that the MAN engineers told me was that equally as important as annual operating hours was the number of hours the heat exchangers were exposed to salt water and the temperature and salinity of the water. With a Northeast boat (lower sea water temperatures and salinity compared to a Southeast boat) that sees less than 200 hours a year and is winterized for 4-6 months with antifreeze and corrosion inhibitors, the exposure to salt water is significantly reduced. They are actually more concerned with the sealing surfaces of the heat exchangers than they are of the tube conditions with that kind of use. This has to due with the design of the heads and the gaskets and O-ring materials MAN uses. That is why they gave me the guidance that extended intervals for the A1 and A2 services were acceptable to them. That's also why Carter is able to extend his service interval to 3 years even though he boats aprt of the year (winter) in FLA but the rest of the year in fresh or brackish water. That's also why, as Jeff stated in post #64 that a fresh water MAN CRM engine can go even longer between A1 service intervals.
 
.....Also, related to annual services; oil, filters, and oil samples, for mains, generator, and gears, as well as all fuel filters, racors, and new impellers, labor and travel time is around $2,500 - $3,000. Samples have always been clear on all components.....

Jeff

That makes absolute sense. If I include the 5 Racors and 5 oil samples and raw water impellers my annual parts come to just under $1600. Add in 6 hours of labor and whatever travel time is necessary and you wind up in that range.
 
So there is a common perception that MAN maintenace is extraordinarily expensive. I only have prior Cummins QSC500 and QSM 11 experience to compare against and service for these engines is indeed more expensive than for those. I don't have personal experience with CAT. Some of the added costs is due to parts (though not as much as you would think) some of it is due to complexity (these are German designed and made...think Mercedes or BMW) and some of it is due to size; 15 Liter V8's producing 900 HP. There is a major maintenance schedule that MAN calls for to be performed every 2 years. This is comprised mostly of Cooler and Inter-cooler inspection and cleaning. Before I bought this boat I had a long discussion in person with the MAN US Engineering lead from their office in Pompano Beach, FL.. MAN told me that a typical Northeastern operated boat could safely go 4 years between this interval. That also nicely matches the A2 interval (coolant change). I just completed the service and the mechanic told me I could definitely extend to 5 years. This is the second time I've had this service performed. The first time was at purchase to provide a base line. As Carter has indicated, a Southern boat can probably go 3 years between this maintenance. So here's a cost breakdown of annual and periodic maintenance;

Annual (M1-M4)
Engine oil and filter change, Filters $26 each x 4 = $104, Filter washers and O-rings $7.50/filter = $30, 9 gallons synthetic 5W40 x 2 x $30/gallon = $540; total $674 ( I do oil and filter changes myself).
Transmission oil and filter change, Filters $25 each x 2 =$50, 2 gallons oil each x 2 x $18/gallon = $72, total $122
Fuel filters - Primary $66 each x 2 =$132, Secondary $50 each x 4 = $200, total $332
Total oil and filter changes annually $1128 (I've heard if you had this service performed it's about $2,000). Yes, there are 2 oil filters per engine and 3 fuel filters per engine, remember, think German. There are 2 Racors per engine also but that's not MAN specific.
Major (A1 and A2)
I have the break out for all of the parts and labor for this, but it's fairly extensive. The summary is 70 hours of labor @ $135/hr. = $9,450, travel time 4 hours @ $135/hr. = $540, remove, clean, test and reinstall; the engine heat exchangers $325 each x 2 = $650, gear oil coolers $225 each x 2 = $450, fuel oil coolers $200 each x 2 =$400, inter-coolers $200 each x 2 =$400, air filters $85 each x 4 = $320, engine coolant (Shell ELC) 10 gallons each x 2 x $30/gallon = $600, raw water impellers $120 x 2 = $240, miscellaneous belts, gaskets, washers and O-rings $3100. Although not on the maintenance schedule, I also have the mechanics change both drive belts on each engine. The fuel coolers and gear oil coolers are also not on the schedule but I do them anyway while they are down there as cheap insurance. All in bill for this service was $16,200 plus sales tax.

While I had the mechanics on the boat this year I also had them service the generator. Turns out my raw water pump drive shaft was worn and needed replacing. Apparently, this is an Onan update and should be looked at. That cost me another $700, parts and labor.

So, in summary, MAN engine maintenance is not cheap, though a lot of it can be done by anyone mechanically inclined. All of the work performed could be done by any competent diesel mechanic. Other than the parts, which can be ordered by anyone, none of this work required MAN specific knowledge. I really don't know how these costs compare to a new CAT C18 ACERT or equivalent MTU or Volvo engine, but I would expect their fluid (oil and coolant) volumes to be similar. One thing I do know now, once you get in to this boat size and horsepower range you need to be prepared for bigger expenses, both for the engines and all of the other boat systems.
 
I only average about 50 hours per year. The interesting point that the MAN engineers told me was that equally as important as annual operating hours was the number of hours the heat exchangers were exposed to salt water and the temperature and salinity of the water. With a Northeast boat (lower sea water temperatures and salinity compared to a Southeast boat) that sees less than 200 hours a year and is winterized for 4-6 months with antifreeze and corrosion inhibitors, the exposure to salt water is significantly reduced. They are actually more concerned with the sealing surfaces of the heat exchangers than they are of the tube conditions with that kind of use. This has to due with the design of the heads and the gaskets and O-ring materials MAN uses. That is why they gave me the guidance that extended intervals for the A1 and A2 services were acceptable to them. That's also why Carter is able to extend his service interval to 3 years even though he boats aprt of the year (winter) in FLA but the rest of the year in fresh or brackish water. That's also why, as Jeff stated in post #64 that a fresh water MAN CRM engine can go even longer between A1 service intervals.

GREAT POST - Thanks
 
So there is a common perception that MAN maintenace is extraordinarily expensive. I only have prior Cummins QSC500 and QSM 11 experience to compare against and service for these engines is indeed more expensive than for those. I don't have personal experience with CAT. Some of the added costs is due to parts (though not as much as you would think) some of it is due to complexity (these are German designed and made...think Mercedes or BMW) and some of it is due to size; 15 Liter V8's producing 900 HP. There is a major maintenance schedule that MAN calls for to be performed every 2 years. This is comprised mostly of Cooler and Inter-cooler inspection and cleaning. Before I bought this boat I had a long discussion in person with the MAN US Engineering lead from their office in Pompano Beach, FL.. MAN told me that a typical Northeastern operated boat could safely go 4 years between this interval. That also nicely matches the A2 interval (coolant change). I just completed the service and the mechanic told me I could definitely extend to 5 years. This is the second time I've had this service performed. The first time was at purchase to provide a base line. As Carter has indicated, a Southern boat can probably go 3 years between this maintenance. So here's a cost breakdown of annual and periodic maintenance;

Annual (M1-M4)
Engine oil and filter change, Filters $26 each x 4 = $104, Filter washers and O-rings $7.50/filter = $30, 9 gallons synthetic 5W40 x 2 x $30/gallon = $540; total $674 ( I do oil and filter changes myself).
Transmission oil and filter change, Filters $25 each x 2 =$50, 2 gallons oil each x 2 x $18/gallon = $72, total $122


WHAT
Fuel filters - Primary $66 each x 2 =$132, Secondary $50 each x 4 = $200, total $332
Total oil and filter changes annually $1128 (I've heard if you had this service performed it's about $2,000). Yes, there are 2 oil filters per engine and 3 fuel filters per engine, remember, think German. There are 2 Racors per engine also but that's not MAN specific.
Major (A1 and A2)
I have the break out for all of the parts and labor for this, but it's fairly extensive. The summary is 70 hours of labor @ $135/hr. = $9,450, travel time 4 hours @ $135/hr. = $540, remove, clean, test and reinstall; the engine heat exchangers $325 each x 2 = $650, gear oil coolers $225 each x 2 = $450, fuel oil coolers $200 each x 2 =$400, inter-coolers $200 each x 2 =$400, air filters $85 each x 4 = $320, engine coolant (Shell ELC) 10 gallons each x 2 x $30/gallon = $600, raw water impellers $120 x 2 = $240, miscellaneous belts, gaskets, washers and O-rings $3100. Although not on the maintenance schedule, I also have the mechanics change both drive belts on each engine. The fuel coolers and gear oil coolers are also not on the schedule but I do them anyway while they are down there as cheap insurance. All in bill for this service was $16,200 plus sales tax.

While I had the mechanics on the boat this year I also had them service the generator. Turns out my raw water pump drive shaft was worn and needed replacing. Apparently, this is an Onan update and should be looked at. That cost me another $700, parts and labor.

So, in summary, MAN engine maintenance is not cheap, though a lot of it can be done by anyone mechanically inclined. All of the work performed could be done by any competent diesel mechanic. Other than the parts, which can be ordered by anyone, none of this work required MAN specific knowledge. I really don't know how these costs compare to a new CAT C18 ACERT or equivalent MTU or Volvo engine, but I would expect their fluid (oil and coolant) volumes to be similar. One thing I do know now, once you get in to this boat size and horsepower range you need to be prepared for bigger expenses, both for the engines and all of the other boat systems.
So there is a common perception that MAN maintenace is extraordinarily expensive. I only have prior Cummins QSC500 and QSM 11 experience to compare against and service for these engines is indeed more expensive than for those. I don't have personal experience with CAT. Some of the added costs is due to parts (though not as much as you would think) some of it is due to complexity (these are German designed and made...think Mercedes or BMW) and some of it is due to size; 15 Liter V8's producing 900 HP. There is a major maintenance schedule that MAN calls for to be performed every 2 years. This is comprised mostly of Cooler and Inter-cooler inspection and cleaning. Before I bought this boat I had a long discussion in person with the MAN US Engineering lead from their office in Pompano Beach, FL.. MAN told me that a typical Northeastern operated boat could safely go 4 years between this interval. That also nicely matches the A2 interval (coolant change). I just completed the service and the mechanic told me I could definitely extend to 5 years. This is the second time I've had this service performed. The first time was at purchase to provide a base line. As Carter has indicated, a Southern boat can probably go 3 years between this maintenance. So here's a cost breakdown of annual and periodic maintenance;

Annual (M1-M4)
Engine oil and filter change, Filters $26 each x 4 = $104, Filter washers and O-rings $7.50/filter = $30, 9 gallons synthetic 5W40 x 2 x $30/gallon = $540; total $674 ( I do oil and filter changes myself).
Transmission oil and filter change, Filters $25 each x 2 =$50, 2 gallons oil each x 2 x $18/gallon = $72, total $122
Fuel filters - Primary $66 each x 2 =$132, Secondary $50 each x 4 = $200, total $332
Total oil and filter changes annually $1128 (I've heard if you had this service performed it's about $2,000). Yes, there are 2 oil filters per engine and 3 fuel filters per engine, remember, think German. There are 2 Racors per engine also but that's not MAN specific.
Major (A1 and A2)
I have the break out for all of the parts and labor for this, but it's fairly extensive. The summary is 70 hours of labor @ $135/hr. = $9,450, travel time 4 hours @ $135/hr. = $540, remove, clean, test and reinstall; the engine heat exchangers $325 each x 2 = $650, gear oil coolers $225 each x 2 = $450, fuel oil coolers $200 each x 2 =$400, inter-coolers $200 each x 2 =$400, air filters $85 each x 4 = $320, engine coolant (Shell ELC) 10 gallons each x 2 x $30/gallon = $600, raw water impellers $120 x 2 = $240, miscellaneous belts, gaskets, washers and O-rings $3100. Although not on the maintenance schedule, I also have the mechanics change both drive belts on each engine. The fuel coolers and gear oil coolers are also not on the schedule but I do them anyway while they are down there as cheap insurance. All in bill for this service was $16,200 plus sales tax.

While I had the mechanics on the boat this year I also had them service the generator. Turns out my raw water pump drive shaft was worn and needed replacing. Apparently, this is an Onan update and should be looked at. That cost me another $700, parts and labor.

So, in summary, MAN engine maintenance is not cheap, though a lot of it can be done by anyone mechanically inclined. All of the work performed could be done by any competent diesel mechanic. Other than the parts, which can be ordered by anyone, none of this work required MAN specific knowledge. I really don't know how these costs compare to a new CAT C18 ACERT or equivalent MTU or Volvo engine, but I would expect their fluid (oil and coolant) volumes to be similar. One thing I do know now, once you get in to this boat size and horsepower range you need to be prepared for bigger expenses, both for the engines and all of the other boat systems.
 
Thanks for a great post on the Maintenance and cost -
 
What straps do you use to tie down your 11 foot boston whaler to the swim platform on the 58 Sedan Bridge
 
I use 1" rachet straps with SS rachets - I think you can find them at Defender...

I also use four 1" straps with SS ratchets. Mine came from GHS, probably cheaper at Defender.
 
Anybody have their engine hours dramatically increase? Two years ago, my stbd engine suddenly indicated 52,329 hours one day. It is caused by a soldered-in battery on the MMDS board. My "MAN man" sent the board off to MAN for a fix. Last week, my port engine read 520,543 hours! Same thing. Since most of our boats are the same age, you may see this someday. MAN says it's OK to continue to run until you get it fixed...
 
Anybody have their engine hours dramatically increase? Two years ago, my stbd engine suddenly indicated 52,329 hours one day. It is caused by a soldered-in battery on the MMDS board. My "MAN man" sent the board off to MAN for a fix. Last week, my port engine read 520,543 hours! Same thing. Since most of our boats are the same age, you may see this someday. MAN says it's OK to continue to run until you get it fixed...

That might be tough on resale value...
 
Anybody have their engine hours dramatically increase? Two years ago, my stbd engine suddenly indicated 52,329 hours one day. It is caused by a soldered-in battery on the MMDS board. My "MAN man" sent the board off to MAN for a fix. Last week, my port engine read 520,543 hours! Same thing. Since most of our boats are the same age, you may see this someday. MAN says it's OK to continue to run until you get it fixed...

Carter, I had my MMDS boards repaired by MAN. Hopefully you only had to pay for the shipping, they did mine as warranty work, even though the engines were out of warranty. This failure is pretty common with our displays. As MAN said to me, it isn't a matter of if, but rather when, it will happen.
 

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