410 Sundancer/Express Cruiser and 400 Sundancer/Express Cruiser **Official Thread**

Anyone have a good solution to re-fasten the insulation to the underside of the ER hatch? I tried some 3M spray glue in a can and that didn't hold.
 
3M Weather Strip adhesive in a tube.........comes in either amber or black colors. The mechanics here call it gorilla snot because you just can't remove it when it is applied like a contact adhesive, which it is.
 
Boat guy, what did you stick them to the hatch with? Would the WM adhesive that Franck suggested hold the pin on there? I only have a foot by say a foot section that is loose.
 
Hoping can get some guidance/help on a few issues I have been having with my '97 400 DA with 3116TA engines. Few facts - just installed new port engine Caterpillar turbo, impellers done, belts and hoses new, heat exchanger cleaned out (supposedly by Marina), new transmission coolers.

1. Port tach shows 2500 RPM but Starboard only at 2000, throttles in same position, can't tell if tach is wrong or if one engine is really not getting up to RPM. What RPMs should these cruise at? What speed? I could only get the boat up to 17 knots.

2. Does anyone know of a good diesel engine mechanic that KNOWS Caterpillar engines? Someone that is in New England? Ideally one that has the tools and shims to do all the work? I have had a couple diesel mechanics out and they seem clueless when it comes down to these engines. I also had H.O. Penn out and for the absurd amount of money they were not much help. He basically told me if the temp and oil pressures were OK not to worry about it. I don't like things like this, and I have a trip to Block Island and Martha's Vineyard planned and want to make sure the boat is safe, reliable and I won't be hurting something if I take it on a long trip.

3. In the front stateroom (v-berth), there are two switches to the right of the door when you enter. The top switch turns on and off the lights. I can't figure out what the bottom switch does. Likewise, the power outlet on the port side next to the closet seems to be dead. Odd.

4. Anyone have to replace their sanitation hoses yet? Mine are original and show extensive dry cracking. No leaks or bad odors yet, but not sure how much longer these things will last and I would rather know what is ahead of me and maybe make it a winter project.

Thanks! John in Westbrook, CT
 
Boulz said:
3. In the front stateroom (v-berth), there are two switches to the right of the door when you enter. The top switch turns on and off the lights. I can't figure out what the bottom switch does. Likewise, the power outlet on the port side next to the closet seems to be dead. Odd.
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Boulz, on mine, the top switch turns on/off the reading lights on forward bulkhead. The bottom switch turns on rope lighting that is under the v-berth bed. It is 12v and is easily changed out to led so you can see in the drawers and your ac.
 
Cocktail Time said:
Boat guy, what did you stick them to the hatch with? Would the WM adhesive that Franck suggested hold the pin on there? I only have a foot by say a foot section that is loose.
Click to expand...
I just installed new insulation on my hatch. The pins have a perforated pad on them. I used a hot glue gun in the corner to hold them in place while I mixed up some fiberglass resin with thickening agent. Thicken it to a putty consistency. No drip no runs. Best of all I didn't have to remove the hatch. I did it on the vertical.
 
John

1. RPMs - the RPM spec is 2800 WOT. 2500/2000 is way under spec. However, you need to use a strobe tach to find out what actual RPM they are turning. If truly 2500/2000. That’s a big deal. I would not run the boat out of my slip until I got to the bottom of that. The dash gauges are junk. Im just about to order Aetna. Direct replacement, much more accurate. Cruise RPM 2000-2400 range.

2. CAT mechanic. I have used CAT when needed, but do my own MX. They are very expensive, but so are these engines. Might have to pay the piper, but a lot of this can be diagnosed cheap/free. You might be chasing a ghost.

First order of business is to get a strobe tach on the engines at WOT.

Report back with your WOT RPM.

3. Sani hoses - I’m considering changing out hoses this winter. The front seems the toughest, but I think pull the front head, disconnect the hose and pull it out from the engine room. I’m going to attach a fiberglass wire snake to allow the replacement to be pull back the other direction. I thought I started a thread on this, but it’s boating season, not MX season. More as we get towards winter
 
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dtfeld said:
John

1. RPMs - the RPM spec is 2800 WOT. 2500/2000 is way under spec. However, you need to use a strobe tach to find out what actual RPM they are turning. If truly 2500/2000. That’s a big deal. I would not run the boat out of my slip until I got to the bottom of that. The dash gauges are junk. Im just about to order Aetna. Direct replacement, much more accurate. Cruise RPM 2000-2400 range.

If you are about to order Aetna, let me know what you are getting, perhaps I will order a set as well and maybe they will give us a break if we order together. Who knows. I am getting a diesel mechanic down to check RPM tomorrow. Thank you!

John
Click to expand...
 
Boulz said:
Hoping can get some guidance/help on a few issues I have been having with my '97 400 DA with 3116TA engines. Few facts - just installed new port engine Caterpillar turbo, impellers done, belts and hoses new, heat exchanger cleaned out (supposedly by Marina), new transmission coolers.

1. Port tach shows 2500 RPM but Starboard only at 2000, throttles in same position, can't tell if tach is wrong or if one engine is really not getting up to RPM. What RPMs should these cruise at? What speed? I could only get the boat up to 17 knots.

3. In the front stateroom (v-berth), there are two switches to the right of the door when you enter. The top switch turns on and off the lights. I can't figure out what the bottom switch does. Likewise, the power outlet on the port side next to the closet seems to be dead. Odd.

Thanks! John in Westbrook, CT
Click to expand...

1. Who did the turbo / impeller work? Also, what PN and did you use for the turbo and cost? CAT is telling me they only have remans now....I'm trying to source new ones. Probably go direct Borg Warner.

3. The switch plate should have 3 switches. Top is the valence, which should be the lights above the two closets. The middle switch is stateroom, which are the lights above the bed attached to the wall closest to the bow. Now those lights have individual mini switches on their sides so you might need to switch them up if they are not lighting when you hit the main switch. The last switch on the bottom is the indirect lighting. Basically, that's a rope light under the bed. If you lift the bed up you can see it attached the cabinetry.
 
Ok, I’m really looking at a 98 450 but if it doesn’t pass survey or I can’t make the right deal there are a couple 40-41’s for sale in the area. I haven’t looked at them yet however.
I may be off on the exact nomenclature on these, please excuse or correct me. Sundancer is what I’m after.

My real question is what are the differences between the 450 and 410 Sundancer? The 450 has Cat diesels which I like and the 410 has gas motors. How about room below deck? It looks to me from pictures, just a tiny bit smaller. Where?
What do I have to give up?

Any thing else would be helpful.

I am planning on live aboard. Yeah there are more spacious vessels but I’m pretty sold on these right now.
Single with a beautiful dog.

Byron
 
I have lived on my 400DA. It was fine, but when it comes to living aboard, there aren't many circumstances where bigger isn't better! The 400DA, 410DA (Sundancer) and 400EC and 410EC (Express Cruiser) were all available with diesel as an option.

The washer/dryer was available in some 450's. The capacity and reliability is low, (a member here called it the WrinkleMaster 5000) but each minute I don't have to spend in the marina laundry facilities is a minute well-spent.

The port-galley layout of the 450 is very similar to the 400DA and 410DA. Everything is just a bit bigger. (except headroom at the helm) The aft head in the 400/410 is really cramped, but I'd expect you to use it as a closet most of the time anyway. I like the tall fridge/freezer we get in the 400/410.

I find the salon area of the starboard-galley 450 to be cramped, but that's also part of what gives you the option of the washer/dryer.
 
We spend long week-ends and week long vacations on our 410 with our goldendoodle. Perfect for that mission. I wanted a Sedan Bridge for the better living arrangements of having the living space above with great big wrap around view/windows. Wife liked the Sundancer for the water level cockpit for entertaining larger crowds. 410 w/ CAT 3126 is a pretty awesome solution for us. The downside is the cabin is cave like. If I we single, I think I'd have a Sedan Bridge, but I'd have to have one of the newer versions in the 42-45+ ft range with higher headroom.

If a Sundancer is your thing, look at the early 2000's 460's as well. I think its the "newer" version of the 450. I think I posted somewhere else, it gets you the reclining chair and a washer dryer, and likely Cummins engines.

If your going to run the boat, diesels are a huge advantage in handling and fuel cost in anything over 40'. If using as a dock queen, or on smaller lake, gassers are would be acceptable.
 
Boat Guy said:
1. Who did the turbo / impeller work? Also, what PN and did you use for the turbo and cost? CAT is telling me they only have remans now....I'm trying to source new ones. Probably go direct Borg Warner.

3. The switch plate should have 3 switches. Top is the valence, which should be the lights above the two closets. The middle switch is stateroom, which are the lights above the bed attached to the wall closest to the bow. Now those lights have individual mini switches on their sides so you might need to switch them up if they are not lighting when you hit the main switch. The last switch on the bottom is the indirect lighting. Basically, that's a rope light under the bed. If you lift the bed up you can see it attached the cabinetry.
Click to expand...


Hi, I had a local general marine mechanic do my impellers and a diesel mechanic do the turbo replacements.

I went with the CAT reman turbos, part number 10R-9769. Cost of the turbo and the modification kit (brackets and such to get it on there was $3900 but that includes the $870 core charge so turbo was $3000. I paid the mechanic $500 for the install. Now that I replaced both turbos (port was making sound) and starboard (was seized) the boat is running properly.

I looked for the rope lighting around the V-berth bed or cabinets and not there. Maybe a PO removed it. I will have to try to find where the feed from the switch goes to the area and put rope lights back in. Anyone have a pic of what they look like - where they are supposed to be?

Thanks!

John
 
Boulz said:
I went with the CAT reman turbos,....

I looked for the rope lighting around the V-berth bed or cabinets and not there. Maybe a PO removed it. I will have to try to find where the feed from the switch goes to the area and put rope lights back in. Anyone have a pic of what they look like - where they are supposed to be?
Click to expand...

John, no pict. but, let me see if I can help you. When you lift the bed "hatch" up, in the faux wood frame you will see air openings on both the left and right side. Inside the lip all around from stbd to port should be the rope lighting. It would be difficult to see as it's a bit recessed. Just run your fingers along the edge and see if you can feel it. If you really want I could jump on a Facetime call with you if you have a Iphone.

Re turbos, yep that's what CAT has, but the price I was just quoted was $2200 /each. Was your price for one or two? I'm not sure what mod bracket you're talking about but I'm in the process of going through this now. I think I've educated myself just enough to have it all figured out. I will report back when all completed as to what I discovered.
 
Bentwings said:
Ok, I’m really looking at a 98 450 but if it doesn’t pass survey or I can’t make the right deal there are a couple 40-41’s for sale in the area. I haven’t looked at them yet however.
I may be off on the exact nomenclature on these, please excuse or correct me. Sundancer is what I’m after.

My real question is what are the differences between the 450 and 410 Sundancer? The 450 has Cat diesels which I like and the 410 has gas motors. How about room below deck? It looks to me from pictures, just a tiny bit smaller. Where?
What do I have to give up?

Any thing else would be helpful.

I am planning on live aboard. Yeah there are more spacious vessels but I’m pretty sold on these right now.
Single with a beautiful dog.

Byron
Click to expand...
 
Boat Guy said:
John, no pict. but, let me see if I can help you. When you lift the bed "hatch" up, in the faux wood frame you will see air openings on both the left and right side. Inside the lip all around from stbd to port should be the rope lighting. It would be difficult to see as it's a bit recessed. Just run your fingers along the edge and see if you can feel it. If you really want I could jump on a Facetime call with you if you have a Iphone.

Re turbos, yep that's what CAT has, but the price I was just quoted was $2200 /each. Was your price for one or two? I'm not sure what mod bracket you're talking about but I'm in the process of going through this now. I think I've educated myself just enough to have it all figured out. I will report back when all completed as to what I discovered.
Click to expand...

Hi, thanks I will look for the rope lighting. PM me and give me a cell # and I can send you pics of the receipts for all the parts. The turbo itself was about $2300 and the brackets and gaskets will cost you about another $700. Insane. Basically the new turbo is a slightly different design with a larger opening where the air filter attaches. So the brackets between the air filter and turbo and the end of the air filter need to be changed out. I just did two of these. Next on my list this fall is to do the aftercoolers and I have one riser that looks original (stainless) and one that is the new cast bronze type.
 
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