400DB Upgrade Went South – Buyers Be Aware

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alex F, Dec 6, 2010.

  1. Alex F

    Alex F Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Gary,

    Shhhh...change it now, no one will know. :lol:
     
  2. Turtlesboat

    Turtlesboat Minister of Media TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Feb 4, 2007
    New York City
    1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
    3126 427HP TD transmissions
    Alex, What drove you towards this boat? was it the price you thought you could get it for, or was it the condition of the boat and that you knew it was the best boat on the market?
     
  3. Alex F

    Alex F Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Mike,

    It was actually the combiantion of both. Before getting on the plane we had agreement on the price, providing that the boat is in the condition that was presented to me. At that point this 2002 boat made more sense than other compatative 2001s. One thing that made the negotiatioons a bit simpler is that the broker knew the lowest number the owner and the bank will accept based on previously given offers. So, we were comfortable with the price and the rest was just to make sure the boat was in good condition.
     
  4. All's Well

    All's Well Member GOLD Sponsor

    452
    Jan 14, 2010
    Houston
    '03 460DA
    6CTA's
    Pretty common story ... I've been down that same road a few times as well. I've found few brokers that are willing to be honest and risk losing a sale.
     
  5. Kreole Kid

    Kreole Kid Active Member

    May 25, 2009
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    2004 340 Sundancer,
    2008 Yamaha VX1100 Jet Ski
    8.1 Horizons, V-Drives
    My 1st experience with a broker was horrible. 04' 320 with less than 20 hours on each engine. Okay, Okay I know NOW that less is not always better. This boat had some steering issues, gennie issues, radar/gps issues, etc.

    I was told the boat was immaculate and ready to go ANYWHERE.

    I made 2 trips from New Orleans to Jacksonville FL only to be totally misled by this p.o.s. broker.

    Anyhoot, I found another broker in the Destin area that really took care of me and I would recommend him to anyone:thumbsup:
     
  6. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    1995 550 Sedan Bridge,
    2010 Boston Whaler 130 Super Sport,
    1981 Boston Whaler 130 Sport,
    CAT 3406C's, 580hp.
    Alex, I'm sorry to hear your venture turned out the way it did, but better to find out before you sign any docs than later.

    I've kind of adopted a standing rule about boat brokers-->If they're talking about a boat they have in inventory, you can tell they're lying when their lips are moving.

    My recent purchase went the direction yours did at the start...negotiations over the phone, lined up two surveys (engine/mechanical and hull), got the oil samples tested, etc.

    The end of my story turned out to be much better because, with a very few minor exceptions, the story ended up much happier. I had to replace one of the Glenndining Cablemasters (broker said "oh, it's probably just dirty rollers") and a couple of other minor things, but the broker was just a jerk.

    The oil in my engines hadn't been changed in 3 years but after lengthy discussions with a Cat dealer they said that wouldn't be a problem because the engines hadn't been run in that time.

    I had the person who had maintained the engines for 4 years before it was repo'd do the survey. He knew them inside and out verified they were in good shape.

    Stay with your search...the right boat will turn up. Also, don't overlook the Great Lakes area for boats. They're freshwater boats, their boating season is short, and they usually have low hours on them. Plus, the economy in that region is on its lips and boats are going cheap.
     
  7. Alex F

    Alex F Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    The interesting part is that when we arrived in FL to see the boat, one of the first things the broker and his boss told us that the don't advertise too much and do most of their business based word of mouth advertisement. So, IMO what they did was totally against their benefit or possibility to bring more business, b/c besides loosing the sale they have another pissed off customer who spreads the word on how they do business.

    So, obviously it's up to each broker to decide how he wants to run his business, but as with everything there's a price to pay for every choice you make.


    I guess, it makes no difference which boat a broker sells. When his lips are moving he's lying. But, I wouldn't like to generalize this rule for every single broker, b/c it's not fair for those that being honest for the most part and work hard. My 240 and 320 were purchased thru brokers and I had no issues, especially with 240 deal.

    I don't mind for a broker to be a jerk as long as the boat is good and the deal goes thru. After all, I just need the boat and can forget about the jerk the minute after I get the boat.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  8. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    I kind of think we need to maintain perspective here.

    And, I'm not defending any broker or any shady business practice, but the broker's job is to sell the boat and he is employed and compensated by the seller, not the buyer. To expect the broker to do your due diligence for you is a mistake and you get what you got....i.e. a disappointment.

    My suggestion is to not set yourself up for a failure. Understand the broker's job is to get an offer out of you for the boat, period. Verify everything they tell you. Don't expect them to run the boat, to do examinations following your checklist, to search for records, or get quotes or to fix things. Due diligence is your job, not not the broker's. Rely on photos, listing documents, equipment lists and the professionals (surveyors/captains) you hire to work for you. Beyond that, get in a car or on a plane and go look at the boat you want to buy in person. I really don't care what it costs; it is simply part of the freight in buying a boat as complex as a 40' Sea Ray.
     
  9. Gofirstclass

    Gofirstclass Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 20, 2010
    Tri Cities, WA
    1995 550 Sedan Bridge,
    2010 Boston Whaler 130 Super Sport,
    1981 Boston Whaler 130 Sport,
    CAT 3406C's, 580hp.
    Frank, I agree with what you said...up to a point. I expect the seller's agent to try to sell me on the idea of buying the boat and to get an offer out of me. No problem there.

    I don't expect him to lie to me when I ask him a direct question. An answer of "I don't know the answer to that." is perfectly acceptable, but to lie about something, even if it's a little what lie, is hard for me to accept.

    A broker's reputation is the biggest thing he has to offer to a seller or a buyer. One surveyor I talked with (but ended up not hiring) told me the selling broker was a lot like a schlock used car salesman and to be very cautious about anything he said because it was probably a lie. To me, that was good information to have going into the deal. At least I knew what I was dealing with.
     
  10. Turtlesboat

    Turtlesboat Minister of Media TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Feb 4, 2007
    New York City
    1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
    3126 427HP TD transmissions
    I drove up and down the east coast twice looking for a boat. I think the only thing I asked the brokers was "Is that 450 you have listed available to look at?" I really don't expect them to know anything about the boat other than it's for sale. If they do know something, then I'm pleasantly surprised, but I don't take their word for it. The only thing I expect from the broker is 1) to show me the boat 2) deliver my offer. I've never been disappointed.
     
  11. searay40dad

    searay40dad New Member

    Oct 23, 2006
    Western KY/Panama City FL
    2001 480 Sedan Bridge w/ Novurania RIB
    660 hp CAT 3196's
    you played the right hand. i had a similar situation this summer on the 480. verbal deal over the phone, contingent on boat being exactly what the broker claimed & passing my sea trial, surveyor workup and Cat inspections. I almost walked away too...one issue prior to the survey and one issue after the survey was completed. fortunately my broker stood by everything and made it right. it was the second boat I've bought off of him in 5 years so there was a degree of trust already there. that was a big draw because during my search I must have talked to 25 different brokers from great lakes, east coast and gulf areas and many, if not most, left me feeling uneasy.

    its just nature of the beast I guess--from pre-purchase to operation to maintenance--you name it , nothing is cheap or simple with big boats.

    good luck to you on the search....this one wasn't meant to be.
     
  12. Turtlesboat

    Turtlesboat Minister of Media TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Feb 4, 2007
    New York City
    1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
    3126 427HP TD transmissions
    I don't know why people put so much power in the brokers hands. HE HAS NO POWER. IMO, the only communications I have with the broker is to convince him that when I put a contract in his hands to give to the seller, he's sure that i'm serious and that's the deal.

    Listen to FW and you'll walk away with the boat you want at the price you want.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  13. The Bill Collector

    The Bill Collector Well-Known Member SILVER Sponsor

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tacoma, WA
    450 Sundancer
    3126 Cat's
    The story sounds very similiar.....

    In 2006 I started my "yacht-porn" addiction, I was on yacht world daily and my wife was starting to question my sanity. I did a lot of searching reviewing comparisons etc.I also changed from a 400 to 450 based upon what I learned.

    In Feb/March 2007 I sold my 300 Weekender and had a check in hand plus savings and a line-o-credit. I was ready (or so I thought). I knew what was out there, East Coast, Florida, Great Lakes, So. Calif and I knew transportation costs for all.

    I narrowed my focus down to two boats, one in Sandusky and the other in Huntington Beach. I made an offer on the Sandusky boat and it was rejected. I made an offer on the Huntington boat and it was "stalled"....The boat was going into the Newport Beach boat show and the broker wasn't going to accept my "reasonable" offer without seeing if he could get more for it at the boat show.

    The broker was back on the phone a week later and a little more eager. I requested as much documentation / receipts / invoices (including previous survey) as he could fax/email me, I requested new pictures taken and emailed to me. The broker assured me that the vessel was "Bristol" condition, turn key, needs nothing done and all maintenance up to date.

    I put my 10% down in an escrow account and the wife & I flew from Seattle down to Long Beach where the broker picked us up and drove us to the boat. I went over every inch and then we took her out for the sea trial. The sea trial went well and the hull/system surveyor was on the boat that afternoon. I followed him all over the boat and no problems. So far so good. We flew home on Sunday with diesel mechanic lined up for Monday.

    Now the diesel mechanic found about $4,000 worth of minor issues that needed to be addressed and I kicked in another $2,000 in things I wanted him to do while in the E.R.

    I went to the broker and said if the owner is willing to address our price by the $4k in issues then we can haul the boat to complete the last portion of the survey. The owner agreed and we had the boat hauled. Nothing discovered with the haul out and we closed the deal.

    Two weeks later I had a 450 sitting my marina's driveway and have not regretted it once !!
     
  14. Alex F

    Alex F Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Mike,

    I agree with you, but I don't think that some very basic questions (e.g. "the ad says the canvas is new, is it really new?", or "do you have maintenance records for the past # of years?") mean that he was given much power.

    The situation I went through is not something unusual and as we can see from other responses it's somewhat common. So, the fact that I caught this broker lying on few counts didn’t bother me, b/c I was able to find all the answers I needed. I think that the amount of my homework on this vessel was far beyond what this broker expected. So, despite my do diligence I unfortunately faced with a situation where the seller turned out to be an idiot to lose a sale. Oh well, it’s his loss.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  15. AKBASSKING

    AKBASSKING Active Member

    Apr 13, 2008
    SE Alaska Summer/Columbia River winter
    1988 Yacht Fisher
    Twin 375hp Cat 3208 T/A

    There you go! :thumbsup:

    Plenty more fishes (Boats) in the sea......
     
  16. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    Alex,

    One of the challenges on that particular boat was how many decision makers there were on the other side of the negotiation. I'd bet that the seller had no money to contribute to the repairs you requested and that his bank had already established how big a loss they would take on a short sale and your request for almost a 20% price reduction far exceeded how far they would go.

    You might feel that losing the sale was the sellers loss, but the decision was probably not within his control. Besides, it is just a business decision to the folks you were negotiating with and you just found out the real price for that particular boat and it is unfortunate that it exceeds what you were willing to pay.

    There are 2 sides to every deal!
     
  17. Alex F

    Alex F Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Nov 14, 2006
    East Coast
    2005 420DB with AB 11 DLX Tender, Raymarine Dual E120 MFD/Radar/XMWeather, ST7001 A/P, AIS, SeaLift
    T-Cummins 450Cs Straight-Drives, 9KW Onan Generator, 40HP Yamaha for tender.
    Frank,

    You're 100% correct. But, I still think (and based on the fact of having very detailed information about the situation) that the owners made very stupid call to let me go. Actually, all 3 parties (the seller, the bank and the broker) made extremely stupid call. WE WERE ONLY $5,000 APART. If they couldn't swing $5K out of 3 parties that's very stupid business decision, IMO.

    Some folks can say that I didn't make the right choice to lose a deal over $5K. So, I should mention that my number was based on cutting down to the bone with tons of work I would have to do personaly on top of ~$11K I'd have to spend to do all necessary repairs.

    One of the big items for me was to have all the repairs done under my supervision and by the shop of my choice. The broker wanted to make money by getting all repairs done in their shop. But, as I mentioned about the mechanic who couldn't tell the difference between $100 vs $3500 problem with genny, there was no way I was given them any complicated items like fixing the generator.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  18. Turtlesboat

    Turtlesboat Minister of Media TECHNICAL Contributor GOLD Sponsor

    Feb 4, 2007
    New York City
    1996 450DA, TNT, Caribe dink w/15hp OB.
    3126 427HP TD transmissions
    Ooops, Frank beat me to the post.
     
  19. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    I certainly agree with you. $5K difference on that much deal is.....or certainly should be workable. I don't know where I got the idea, but from your first post I thought you were $30K apart.

    Right about here is where it is time for a discussion with the broker....a short one. like "Dude, we are only $5K apart! Earn your commission and find a way to make this work." and, "I've found another boat and am ready to move on, so if you have some magic to work, now is the time to make it happen before I fax this contract to the other seller."
     
  20. tdschafer

    tdschafer Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2009
    Long island , NY
    1997 330 sundancer
    twin 454's, Carb, V-Drives
    Alex,
    The bottom line is you weren't comfortable with the the deal, period. There is nothing wrong with that. There's many times I've walked away from deals much smaller than this due to a lack of comfort in how it was shaking out. I can't recall one time I regretted it! Now there were a couple times that I didn't walk away when I got that funny feeling and I can recall immediately the regret over those decisions. So, sleep well my friend, your ship will soon come in! I'm sure of it!
     

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