2nd Admendment Sanctuary?

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I keep coming back to situations like Sandy Hook with all those dead kids. And the Colorado movie theater. And Las Vegas, etc. etc. Too many. How does one balance a one's right to bear arms, with other's right to live and not get shot? I don't know, and lots of others don't or we wouldn't be discussing this. I'm really tired of people getting murdered en mass ....

Excellent point, and I think it's a concern many people have. We all want change...

I caution you though to correlate mental health issues with "gun control".

Unfortunately, whenever a shooting takes place the narrative is to remove the freedoms and protection of law abiding citizens.

In other words, I'm just sitting here eating my breakfast and someone shoots up a school, and now I lose my rights and protections? I'm scratching my head how anyone would see the logic in that. What did I do wrong, that I have to figure out the nuances of some arbitrary State law?

To your point, something needs to change. And, IMO, it's is how we raise our children and people's access to mental health professionals. Kids today need better coping skills and we need to address the bulling issue properly. What I mean by that is, there will always be bullies. But, that doesn't mean it has to define you nor does it mean you can't get the help you need. It's a multi-pronged solution that requires helping and treating the bully as well as the bullied. Though, if you think you can simply create a law that someone without any hope will follow, I think you are kidding yourself.

So, why create these restrictive laws that penalize law abiding citizens and make it harder for them to protect themselves from all evil? Only one answer, to control them...Some people believe the roll of Gov't is to create control. I'm not it that camp....

Respectfully, you ask the right question, and the answer is treat those individuals that need mental help. There are already laws to help with that issue. You don't have to come up with fancy laws that restrict bullets, magazine capacities, the look of a weapon, what color it is, etc, etc...

Be part of the solution, and change the narrative to focus on coping skills and mental health, not the freedoms and protection the 2A provides.

I mean, why do we have to worry about our 2A rights depending on which state we happen to be in? It's time SCOTUS fixes this....
 
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Government employees are usually good, honest people. But they are no smarter or more knowledge than anyone else. Many work for the government because the government was hiring when they needed a job. Now, ten/fifteen years later, they are senior bureaucrats making life changing decisions.
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You might find humor in this....Then again, perhaps not...

My application for CCW was denied by a State employee because I was born outside the country, in Hawaii, and therefore not a citizen....I kid you not....These are your decision makers. (Subsequently resolved - Though employee still working in that office I'm sure)
 
Woody it's in SB 16, any firearm that carries more than 10 rounds. My newest Sig carries more than 10.
 
You might find humor in this....Then again, perhaps not...

My application for CCW was denied by a State employee because I was born outside the country, in Hawaii, and therefore not a citizen....I kid you not....These are your decision makers. (Subsequently resolved - Though employee still working in that office I'm sure)
I was born with a left eye that's almost useless. Put a 3' tall A in front of me, glasses or no glasses, I'd have a hard time recognizing it. My other eye works fine.

I went to renew my drivers license one time and the State employee actually got smartass mouthy with me. He said 'you have to see better than that or I won't give you a license'. I asked him to show me the law that says one eyed people aren't allowed to drive.
 
I can put it together for you but I'm sure you understand. You would swing it at you assailant and they would grab the stick end. Press a button on the grip and pull that out
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My 320 has a 17 round mag. It's sold that way this isn't a aftermarket mag.
 
I keep coming back to situations like Sandy Hook with all those dead kids. And the Colorado movie theater. And Las Vegas, etc. etc. Too many. How does one balance a one's right to bear arms, with other's right to live and not get shot? I don't know, and lots of others don't or we wouldn't be discussing this. I'm really tired of people getting murdered en mass .
I'm a gun rights supporter, rifles, shotguns, handguns...I have plenty of each. I don't have a CC permit, don't feel the need for one. I see nothing wrong with folks getting a CC permit but I think it's a small percentage that should actually use them. Having said that...I'm tired of the mass shootings too.

I've given this more thought since having grandkids, now two 13yo and one 16yo. To think they could be caught up in such an event, let alone a casualty, has actually brought tears to my eyes. Something has to change.

The talk is always about 'assault weapons'. What is the attraction to this type gun? I'm certain style/look is one and I think high capacity the other. The ability to spray lead like Rambo and his M60 is much more attractive to the warped minds than grandpa's single shot shotgun.

I've been at gun ranges where folks, younger more than older, are burning through their high capacity magazines. I've been deer hunting and you can hear folks blasting away, the first couple shots aimed maybe, the rest is just strafing. They think it's fun, it's cool, just like bump shooting or using a bumpstock. IMHO, I think high capacity mags promote the idea it's OK to horse around, the respect for guns is diminished, they're often owned and played with like toys, marksmanship and sportsmanship that last thing on their minds.

I'd like to see magazine capacities reduced, 5 rounds max for rifles above .22 rimfire.
 
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Woody, that would be the "common sense" gun law I'd have no issue with.

I do own 3, one of my own two of dads. I bought mine from a friend who's house and office was broken into. Dad got his from owners that couldn't pay to have their gun fixed. He bought them from them then fixed them. He would then sell them up at the gunshop. These two he kept for some reason.
Why I've kept them , I don't even know. Colt has said they will no longer make theirs for non military use. It's a good step from a company to bypass the political BS and grandstanding.

Changes do need to be made but they need to be thought out and not just done to get the vote. Some folks like me and you should be dale to sit down and find true common ground.
You stated large mags, I'm not going to lie, I have some all came with the firearm. I don't use them and if the Commonwealth banned them I'd turn them in. I see no real reason to have them, I don't need 20 rounds to hit a deer.

Mine is mental health and safety training that must be renewed reviewed every 3 to 5 years. The background check is great but it does not look into ones health. How it could be done I have no idea. Training is a must, just like it should be for boaters. Not book training or online classes. Classroom, hands on, and simulator. Then a recert class in 3 to 5. I can't see anyone that would fuss over proper training. I even think the NRA would be on board. Make it a prerequisite before ownership of a firearm. My indoor range offers a one week class. At the end of the class you are put into a simulator. That thing will make you stop and think. It's a great training tool.

I still don't see how a Commonwealth or State can pass these Admendments. I never even knew abou the Red Flag law.
 
Woody,

I share some of your concerns but the AR platform is the most popular rifle in the US outselling virtually all other types of weapons. I just don't see putting that genie back into the bottle by penalizing law abiding citizens. I don't know anyone that uses an AR for deer hunting.

It has already been proven that bans and buybacks don't work.

I also don't agree that magazine size has to be limited. Again, with 325 million people in the country the criminals don't care about gun laws.....all you are doing is making criminals out of law abiding citizens.

I do agree that background checks should be conducted on all weapons transfers. Also, I am supportive of firearms training taught to everyone in high school and anyone that owns a gun. I learned to shoot match rifle at the YMCA when I was 12 and competitively shot in high school before the "politically correct" cancelled the program.

If the school systems treated it like Driver's education.....I suspect people could have a rationale discussion on the subject. In the absence of that....it is a emotionally charged discussion by a lot of people who don't own guns.
 
Woody, that would be the "common sense" gun law I'd have no issue with.

I do own 3, one of my own two of dads. I bought mine from a friend who's house and office was broken into. Dad got his from owners that couldn't pay to have their gun fixed. He bought them from them then fixed them. He would then sell them up at the gunshop. These two he kept for some reason.
Why I've kept them , I don't even know. Colt has said they will no longer make theirs for non military use. It's a good step from a company to bypass the political BS and grandstanding.

Changes do need to be made but they need to be thought out and not just done to get the vote. Some folks like me and you should be dale to sit down and find true common ground.
You stated large mags, I'm not going to lie, I have some all came with the firearm. I don't use them and if the Commonwealth banned them I'd turn them in. I see no real reason to have them, I don't need 20 rounds to hit a deer.

Mine is mental health and safety training that must be renewed reviewed every 3 to 5 years. The background check is great but it does not look into ones health. How it could be done I have no idea. Training is a must, just like it should be for boaters. Not book training or online classes. Classroom, hands on, and simulator. Then a recert class in 3 to 5. I can't see anyone that would fuss over proper training. I even think the NRA would be on board. Make it a prerequisite before ownership of a firearm. My indoor range offers a one week class. At the end of the class you are put into a simulator. That thing will make you stop and think. It's a great training tool.

I still don't see how a Commonwealth or State can pass these Admendments. I never even knew abou the Red Flag law.

Mandatory training would be an excellent start. I like that idea of continued training as well.

While reading your thoughts, something occurred to me about relative levels of training. Last year I got my scuba certification. Scuba certification requires multiple hours of classwork (or online classes), passing tests, several multi-hour pool training sessions, and then 2 multi-hour open water test sessions. Without a certificate of training you can't get the air to go diving - effectively you can't dive. Compare this to firearms; there's no similar training requirement (that I know of?) or really any training.

Comparing to two:
  • Diving: many hours of classwork; written tests; practical training; practical tests. Risk: realistically, injury to or death of just the diver from a recreational activity (not to others - OK, maybe a dive buddy)
  • Firearms: no class work or written tests, no practical training or tests. Risk: severe injury or death to others from an item intended to kill.
It seems like for these two activities, the ratios of training to risks to those not participating are both inverse and backwards.

I'm not hopeful that the NRA would be supportive of significant training. I think they knee-jerk oppose anything that whiffs of any restriction whatsoever. I also think certain people's reaction would be - and this is kinda jerky - "I dun don't need no stinkin' trainin' - gimme ma guns so's ah kin lit up some deer, hur hur hur!" Yes, this was a bit offensive, but hopefully it will be taken as a point for discussion and not as a personal insult. I feel like we're in a crisis and there's a segment that will brook zero attempt have safe, educated firearms owners no matter how "common sense" it seems from some angles.
 
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I'd like to see magazine capacities reduced, 5 rounds max for rifles above .22 rimfire.

I don't know about that. Even in the Republik of NY there is still all kinds of Controversy over magazine capacity, even after the now famous Safe Act. I guess I just never heard of "2nd amendment sanctuary" before. We have actually had that here ever since the safe act, it just wasn't publicized until the last few years. My friends in law enforcement had always said there is no way they would enforce some of the safe act conditions. Below is a news article from last year about this. For those of you that may not realize it, NY state, like any other state is red everywhere except where large population centers are and many of our local authorities, for the most part, don't have any tolerance for the thinking at the other end of the state.

I am pro 2nd amendment, but agree that something has got to be done to curb the carnage.
I don't have a problem with some training and background checks. I also feel that the background checks should maybe be a little more (OK, maybe a lot more) involved for an AR vs maybe an 870 Wingmaster. However, personally, I'm not in favor of continued training. Training should be up front, after that, It's one more thing to add to the calendar, just like renewing my pistol permit and my "Assault rifle" registration, which the Safe Act says I now have to do. Not just a money grab, but if you forget and don't, it gives them a reason to pay you a visit and see (surveil?) for themselves, and depending on how things play out going forward, maybe even confiscate for no good reason. See that's the meat of it, revoking a permit or denying a purchase for a good reason is one thing, enacting sketchy laws that leaves the door open for confiscation is another. I don't live, eat and breathe the shooting sports, I like to hunt and hang out at the range enough to keep proficient with my carry guns, after that, I'm busy, and it could be real easy to forget to send in my money to buy my freedom that is already afforded by the constitution. It just seems to me that it is kind of designed to catch us in an honest mistake and then make us pay an awful price for it, just like loosing count of how many rounds I just stuffed in that magazine...let's see now, was it seven or maybe was it eight??? I hope it wasn't eight or I just committed a felony.
https://buffalonews.com/2018/11/19/...-act-will-stop-being-enforced-in-erie-county/
 
We have to remember what brings this subject up. It's a kid with mental problems that has images of grandeur when he has such a powerful weapon in his hands. In their confused minds they're going to be somebody, they're going to show somebody, they're saying 'look at me' as they fire a seemingly endless supply of ammo at their schoolmates. I don't think a gun safety class is what they're lacking.

Almost 50 years ago not far from where I live a kid killed a young woman and two little children with a knife. He was slow, different but harmless. He knew his victims, the young woman thought nothing of letting him in the house when he asked for a glass of water. Come to find out he had recently read a book about the Manson murders, he had been telling other kids at school that some day he'd be famous, everyone would know who he was. These grandiose visions seem common.

My thought with magazine size is to lessen the attraction, it would also make them, their images, and actions less powerful.

Criminal types, if they want, have always had things that law abiding folks aren't supposed to. I don't see that situation should impact decisions made when we address the uniqueness of mass shootings.
 
The problem you will have with training is the constitution doesn't say you can bear arms if you're trained. You would need a tiered system -- (a) for a simple home defense shot gun and or hunting rifle - maybe nothing or a simple online test; (b) hand guns and concealed carry - many programs already out there for this; and (c) something more for ARs and such - serious weapons require serious training.

It really starts with flagging and following up on high risk situations. The large majority of mass shootings have warning signs all over, but little follow thru by authorities.
 
The problem you will have with training is the constitution doesn't say you can bear arms if you're trained. You would need a tiered system -- (a) for a simple home defense shot gun and or hunting rifle - maybe nothing or a simple online test; (b) hand guns and concealed carry - many programs already out there for this; and (c) something more for ARs and such - serious weapons require serious training.

It really starts with flagging and following up on high risk situations. The large majority of mass shootings have warning signs all over, but little follow thru by authorities.

I think the latter is what the red flag laws are attempting to address. The high risk situations can could have been prevented, but a tool to take action was lacking so nothing could be done.
 
Interesting points everyone is making, and I think I'm seeing a pattern.

I see most everyone being respectful and looking for reasonable laws that provide for certain restrictions and training. Perhaps, that's where we are headed. If you understood the psyops at play in this issue perhaps you would be more cautious. At the very least you should be aware that this isn't a level playing field.

There are people that wake up every day and their job is to subconsciously convince you that their agenda is for the best. Before you think I wear a tin-foil hat, I assure you that it's typically a baseball cap with my feet up. I'm not getting worked up, nor paranoid, haha...Let's just say my background doesn't permit me to be naive. So, take this in the light spirit it's intended. I simply want you understand there is a big machine that would be happy to see you acquiesce.

Case in point, The "Patriot Act" ...I mean seriously who doesn't want to be a "Patriot"! (Cue American Flag).... Now, if they called it the " We are going to take your freedoms away and spy on you and have secret courts act" It probably wouldn't have passed so easily...But they were sure to tell you there it was for your protection and people are clearly scared enough to give up freedoms they were afforded for some veiled belief of more safety.

I get it, you want to be more safe. You don't want anything to happen to your loved ones, or anyone, for that matter....3 rounds only - Five rounds only - How about this, single shot and you have to stand on one leg reciting the alphabet backwards? Does that work?

The interesting thing is, while the NRA takes a lot of heat and is bashed incessantly, it is simply an organization funded by many, many individuals. It's not some super pac of billionaires. And, it's probably the largest trainer and advocate for gun safety. But, don't focus on that....

You can be assured, that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding, safety conscience, citizens, and it's the outliers that are the problem. You don't sacrifice freedom for outliers...You take care of them.
 
Woody,

I don't know anyone that uses an AR for deer hunting.

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I do. I have a 6.8SPC II varient which is basically a short .270. However I ordered a 5 round magazine. Sometimes I deer hunt in SD and that's the maximum capacity allowed. I've also deer hunted with .223 bullet. Works great and is light weight.

I love the AR. It's easy to shoot and mine is extremely accurate. I had mine custom built so i'm partial to it with two matching uppers (.223 wylde and 6.8SPC II). Do I have large magazines, yes, but I'm not crazy about spraying $.40 per round of FMJ of .223. 6.8SPC II is closer to $1.00 per round.
 
I believe most people are polite and want to be understanding. Unfortunately when it comes to several "litmus test" topics, the political realm takes over. It is insidious between the media and the political left today.

I watched my Mother In Law become a fringe left liberal by watching CNN everyday. She doesn't work but she can tell every single thing Trump has done wrong including all things he has been accused of. She cried with Rachel Maddow when the Mueller report came out finding ....nothing. It is almost impossible to hold a conversation with her without triggering her TDS.

Unfortunately, technology has enabled a 24x7 news cycle and a propaganda based social media that preys on people like her in the same way Jimmy and Tammy Faye Baker did.

Rest assured.....most people do get what is going on. The trick is to get them to vote.
 
As a bit of background, I am a gun owner and have been at varying levels of ownership for the past fifty or so years. I also live in MA and have a LTC (License to Carry). To qualify for that I took a six hour class, was fingerprinted, underwent a MA State Police, as well as FBI background checks. While there were no licensing requirements when I started shooting at Boy Scout camp in the early sixties, in the intervening years the implementation of licensing and subsequent renewals have subjected me to the various checks.

As a MA resident I can not own an AR or AK pattern rifle, magazines with greater than 10 round capacity, nor purchase a handgun nor semi-automatic rifle that is not on a state published roster. And when I do go to purchase a firearm in MA, must use the Commonwealth’s on line system that does its own background check in addition to the federal check. My brother on the other hand lives in NH, can buy anything he wants short of a machine gun on the basis of his NH drivers license. And that’s the crux of the problem; inconsistent licensing standards.

I’m also a NRA certified Senior Range Safety Officer and pistol instructor, and have taken just about all of the non armed professional courses that Sig Academy offers. I am firmly in favor of stringent qualification based licensing requirements, as well as regular formal training. This is in large part because of the number knuckleheads I have come across in my role as a RSO who were destined to unintentionally shoot themselves or someone around them.

As for banning ARs, fine by me, the things are just too ugly with no wood or engraving.
 

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