2005 39DA vs 2006 40DA

Discussion in 'Newbie Lounge - NEW' started by SandCity, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Hi - I'm brand new to the CSR board, and I'm very impressed with the knowledge shared and desire to help others on the board! I've been a boater my whole life and have been a co-owner on 2 boats with my brother (28ft Cruisers gas & 40ft Carver gas). My family and I are at a point where we are ready to purchase our own and have pinned it down to the 39/40 DA. I had a deposit recently on an 03 38DA but decided to go with the newer generation. We are looking hard at the 2005 39DA & 2006 40DA (basically the same boat), but are seriously on the fence regarding the Cummins QSBs vs Merc 8.1s...... I know, I know, this has been well traveled territory probably as most folks immediately say go diesel, but we are down to the fine details and really could use the expert experience of Sea Ray owners who either have had or currently have these two boats. Our boating will consist of Northport Harbor as the home port - cruising and anchoring the harbors along the Long Island Sound out to Montauk and probably 3 times a season heading out to Block Island / Newport or maybe MV at the farthest. Would we ever take it around the island and down to the Jersey Shore..... maybe, but that would be a long shot as we've never done that length trip in 25 years of boating. There appears to be about a $20-40k difference in the sale comps b/t these boats on the gas v. diesel and our budget really holds tight at nothing newer than a 2006 40DA gas 8.1 or the 2005 39DA diesel. Any sage advice from the members on helping us tip the scales b/t the two would be greatly appreciated!!!
     
  2. Riptide III

    Riptide III Active Member

    463
    Dec 8, 2007
    Dartmouth MA
    1997 Sea Ray 400DA
    Cat 3116 TA
    1994 Sea Ray Laguna CC Twin 135 Mercs
    :
    Ok, I'll be the first. No one ever said, "I wish I hadn't bought a boat with diesels.". That said, you are talking about 1 hour and two hour trips. If the diesel is in your budget and you are on the fence, that is the way I would go. I find we use the heck out of our boat because it doesn't hurt at the pumps nearly as bad. We burn 20 per hour at $2.43 per gallon. The generator burns less than 1 gallon per hour. No chance of explosive fumes in my bilge. Sorry I don't have a scientific formula for you. You did however, ask for advice.
     
    Blkbird and Jaybeaux like this.
  3. JVM225

    JVM225 Well-Known Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Farmingdale, NY
    2002 410 Sundancer, Monaco Edition.
    3126 Cats.
    Assuming both boats are in equally good shape with the same features:
    Go for the diesels. They are basically the same boat, so if you can get the one that is only a year older but it has diesels for the same price then it makes sense to go for the diesels.
    You may find that the length and distance of your trips might occasionally be longer with the bigger boat.
    Cheaper to run, and more desirable for resale.
     
  4. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Thanks Riptide and JVM225.
     
  5. Jeremygavin

    Jeremygavin Member SILVER Sponsor

    744
    Mar 6, 2012
    Cape Cod, MA
    2011 520 Sedan Bridge
    2016 Sea Ray 19 SPX OB
    Cummins QSM11s
    Mercury 150 Fourstroke
    My biggest problem with gas boats is anchoring out and worrying about running the generator. With bigger boats it is fun to venture out and stay on moorings and anchor for extended periods of time. It can be done in gas boat there is much more of a risk of CO poisoning. We were rafted this summer with friends and another boat was tied on the side my genny exhaust outlet was on. It was probably blowing 10-15mph but the way the boats were tied together it was pulling the exhaust fumes back into the boats and my CO detector ended up going off right before I was going to put the kids to bed. It was a how humid night so we all sweated our way to sleep without the AC on because it wasn't worth the risk of getting high levels of CO in the cabin. I am looking forward to upgrading soon to a diesel boat so we can run the genny without worrying about risk to my family.
     
  6. Irie308

    Irie308 Active Member SILVER Sponsor

    732
    May 28, 2013
    CT
    Boatless and currently in search of 420 DA or 480 DB
    350 Mercruisers V-drives
    +1 on Jeremy's post. We anchor or moor so often I long for the day we can not worry (as much) about CO or sitting on 200 gallons of gasoline.
     
  7. gerryb

    gerryb Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor

    Oct 12, 2006
    Somers Point, NJ
    "On Vacation"
    2006 40 Sundancer
    Raymarine E125 & HD Radar + Garmin 5208
    QSB5.9 380 Cummins
    Resale value, maintenance, maneuverability, passenger comfort, docking... just some of the many reasons that I didn't look at anything but diesels when moving-up to this size boat from our 280DA.
     
  8. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Thanks Jeremygavin - Sandcity
     
  9. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Thanks irie308!
     
  10. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Thanks gerryb - looks like you have the exact boat we have been shopping for.....can you give me any other tips on what to look for on the boat (trouble spots, annoyances etc)?
     
  11. copb8tx

    copb8tx Well-Known Member

    Jan 26, 2008
    Lake Texoma, TX
    2005 420 Sundancer
    T-8.1S Horizons
    I can see every argument there except maintenance. It really seems like the maintenance on diesels is far more extensive and costly and if neglected the impact is far greater for repair costs.
     
  12. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Hi copb8tx - You are hitting on one of the points I've been trying to quantify, so thank you! I have friends with older Detroit Diesels but they tell me the Cummings common rail, electronic QSBs on the Sundancers are probably more expensive to maintain, so I really don't have a true measure. I know that the yearly and 100hr maintenance schedule on the Mercs fairly well and since my brother just went through a sudden failure on a 750hr (very well maintained) 2000 7.4L MPI, I'm seeing the $18k bill for that first re-power first hand. Can you shed any light here on QSB service costs?
     
  13. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    I can address part of these questions...........

    Gas vs Diesel-

    I owned a gas 390EC for 10 years. We sold her, was great boat BTW, and bought my current boat, a diesel 450DA and have owned it for 20 years. I am spending far less.....a fraction.....to maintain my diesel boat than I did on the old gas 390. The newer gas engines are very likely even more costly to maintain due to changes in production methods to reduce initial cost with no reguard for continuing maintenance cost for the eventual consumer. The basic reasons are the exhaust and other castings on gas engines must be constantly monitored and changed regularly because they are cast iron or aluminum. The same parts on my diesel are either stainless steel or cast bronze.

    Gas engines have ignition systems which require replacing periodocially. Diesel engines are compresssion fired so if you keep your fuel system clean anf filters serviced regularly, they never need any maintenance or replacement parts other than filters. I had to replace the plugs, plug wires and distributor parts every other year on the gas engines. I have had no cost in 20 years on my diesel engines, other than fuel filters.


    Initial Cost-

    It is true that diesel boats cost more than gaas boats, so your initial investment is greater. But, diesel boats do not depreciate as fas as gas boats so you will get a much higher percentage of your initial cost back when you sell or trade the diesel boat. I suppose the reason for this is the longevity of diesel engines. MY 7.4's in the old 390 were seawater cooled and were within a few hundred hours of needing to be replaced when I sold her with 900 hours on the engines. We have somewhere around 1500 hours on the engines in the 450DA and honestly only think about the engine hours when I enter something in the maintenance logbook. I've got friends who own commercial boats powered by the same engines we have in our Sea Ray boats....one has 16,000 hours with no lost days on the water, another has 12,000 hours on a pair of Cummins B series engines, and a 3rd has just repowered after putting 15,000 hours on a pair of Cummins C series engines in a towboat.


    Continuing Maintenance Cost-

    If you are not inclined to do regular maintenance on your engines, to understand the maintenance shcedule for your diesels or to write the checks for a diesel professional to maintain the engines for you if you can't/won't do it yourself, then don't buy a diesel boat. The reason is very simple......a neglected or abused diesel engine can cost you a fortune to keep dependable and running. Routine diesel maintenance isn't difficult or expensive to do but repairing a broken diesel is expensive, usually requires special tools, and help becaue the parts are heavy.

    The one area where you will see a bit higher maintenance cost with diesels is when you change the oil. Most have an extended oil change interval compared to gas engines...like 250 hour or annually. The annually part is the "gotcha" because, for pleasure boaters, that is roughly 1/2 the hours permitted by the manufacturers. Moisture and contaminants are removed from the engine by changing the oil so we have to (should) change the oil annually. The other issue with diesels is that they require a lot of oil....my engines require 26 qts. per engine compared to 7 quarts for the 7.4L gas engines in the old 390EC. You weill be shopping for diesel oil in 5 gal buckets instead of buying a case of quarts for 2 gas engines.

    note: My OEM fuel and oil filters, which I buy from a dealer located away from the coast, are actually cheaper than aftermarket filters at my local NAPA or O'Reilly's.



    Cost of Maintaining Newer Electronic Common Rail Diesels-

    In the first year or 2 after their arrival on the marine scene, there were some dependability issues with electronic diesels. The fix usually amounted to re-flashing the ECM or reloading the ECM software, took 1 hour or less, but did require a factory trained technicial with access to the manufacturer's computer system. Now, all new non-industrial diesels are electronic and they are just as dependable as their older mechanical counterparts. The exception is when you have to replace injection pumps or injectors. Due to the extremely high fuel pressures used on common rail engines, fuel handling parts tend to be pricey and not universally available. However, if you manage your fuel system, keep water out of the fuel and the fuel clean, there is no reason to expect a fuel system failure will occur on an electronic engine any more frequently than on a mechanical engine.

    Therefore, a QSB engine is every bit as dependable as a 6BTA and won't cost any more to maintain than its mechanical counterpart.

    Hope that helps your understanding a bit.
     
    gerryb likes this.
  14. Riptide III

    Riptide III Active Member

    463
    Dec 8, 2007
    Dartmouth MA
    1997 Sea Ray 400DA
    Cat 3116 TA
    1994 Sea Ray Laguna CC Twin 135 Mercs
    :
    I don't really notice the maintenance aspect of it. These engines run an extremely long time between maintenance levels. With your usage you may never hit and shouldn't hit an expensive fix. You could easily do 1000 hours without a mechanic stepping on board to perform anything. If you are handy you can do all the little things yourself.
    I don't know what the life expectancy of a gasser is however, I think it is possible that you could burn thru the life of one and have to replace it before you have a substantial service on your diesel. Yes, there is more oil to change. But you are saving a but load of money on the cost of fuel. Talk to your local diesel mechanic face to face. Have this conversation with him. I'm sure he would be willing to discuss maintenance schedules and cost with you. Living where you are, be realistic about how many hours you will use the boat. Remember we are talking about run time. I'll bet it's less than 100 hours per season. At that rate you may never hit a scheduled service.
     
  15. keokie

    keokie Well-Known Member

    Dec 27, 2006
    Arizona
    2002 310 Sundancer, Westerbeke 4.5 Genset
    496's, Bravo III's, 2.2:1 Gears
    Sand, that is a big boat for gas engines to push. There have been a bunch of great comments here by a number of folks. Frank, who has lifelong experience in this arena offers tremendous knowledge.

    I'll offer two things. First, with any engine, including diesels, there is possibility of catastrophic failure. This may occur for a number of reasons, including improper operation, bad luck, improper maintenance (if someone else is doing maintenance for you, you will be at the mercy of their capability). Catastrophic failure is way more expensive with diesel than a gas engine. If I were buying diesels, I would want to know I had reasonable access to support them, and was fully versed on proper operation of that engine so that I could greatly reduce two threats.

    Second, diesels supply a different type of power than gas engines. Diesels are much more linear and steady. And for me, in a gas boat I need an abundance of power to get some of that linear and steady performance. The gas engines won't give that in a 40 footer. Without it, I don't like the feel and sound of gas engines being pushed hard over long periods of time. What that means for me, is the operation of the vessel is far less enjoyable with the gas motors, even stressful at times. Diesels run more like a locomotive... very happy working hard.

    I would ask, do you own any tow vehicles? Have you towed with gas and diesel trucks? If you like the way a diesel truck tows a lot more than the way a gas truck tows, let that tell you a lot.
     
  16. skolbe

    skolbe Active Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    St. Louis, MO
    320 Sundancer, Mercury 310 Sport Inflatable Tohatsu 6HP
    350 Mag V-Drive - Kohler 5ecd
    The only issue with diesels I see in my marina is when they are not used. I would lose one model year for diesels in a heartbeat. I have been around our dockmates diesels. I think it is clearly the way to go if you plan to run the boat on a regular basis. If you are planning 25 hours or less a season.
     
  17. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    That does help! Thanks
     
  18. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    You are spot on re the run time Riptide; 100hrs on the mark
     
  19. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Thanks Skolbe
     
  20. SandCity

    SandCity New Member

    16
    Sep 13, 2017
    Northport, NY
    Currently shopping for a 2005 39DA / 2006 40DA on the US east coast (located pref in NY,CT, NJ)
    Boatless
    Keokie - I have towed both with gas & diesel, and you are correct, the diesel has a steady torque band beginning at a much lower rpm.

    I spoke to a neighbor of mine who has been boating for over 40 years and has had 6 sea rays; he gave me some of the same insight that you all here on the board have. If my budget allows I'll push for the diesel, but the options around look to be more expensive than I originally thought - north of $200. Florida 39/40 DAs seem to have a higher percentage of diesel boats, but then I'll have to contend with a potentially more sun beaten and higher hour boat, and the shipping up north. The shopping continues!
     

Share This Page

Show Sidebar