2003 280DA - what would you offer?

[Presentation]

I’m looking at a 2003 280DA for sale.

I have not yet sold my boat, a 1998 240DA. I did find someone that seems very much in a spot that needs to sell so I figure if I buy the 280DA at enough of a deal it would be worth it.

Basically, this is not my ideal boat. The boat is ½ way across the country. I want a generator, trailer, twin 4.3L w/Alpha’s. Boat is a 03 Sea Ray 280 Sundancer.

8.1L Single Engine, Bravo III, Camper Canvas, Cockpit Cover, AC/Heat, Butane only Stove, Windlass, Spotlight, no Generator

Here is how I have determined my asking price:

My ideal boat value $85,000.00 (2003 DA-T 4.3L + gen, trailer)
No Gen $(8,000.00)
No trailer $(7,000.00)
Transportation $(3,000.00)
Fly out / inspect $(500.00)
Local survey $(600.00)
Single engine $(6,000.00)
$59,900.00
Private party - 5 % (split the 10% broker comish)
Sub $56,905.00
Fast sale risk $-15%
Final $48,369.25

I would be taking all the risk, buying it before I sell my boat and go the expense and hassle of buying this so far away and transporting it here.

Is this reasonable?

Any one see anything I missed?

 

[Turtlesboat]

$48k seems awfully low for a 2003 280 even if it doesn't have a genny. 60's seems more like a good offer at least to me if the boat is in good shape.

But why would you go to all that trouble for a boat you don't really want?

I would wait and get the one you want. But that's just me.

 

[Presentation]

Never mind. I made my offer.

They said $60,000 is the lowest. :smt013

They can keep it. We are FAR from the negotiable range for it to be enough of a deal to buy this before I sell our boat and go get it from so far away. :smt014

Actually, at $60,000, I don’t think it’s a deal at all considering it’s a single engine / no generator, even if it was in the slip directly next to mine.

 

[Presentation]

But why would you go to all that trouble for a boat you don't really want?

I would wait and get the one you want. But that's just me.

Yes, you are right. Thank you. :thumbsup:

 

[Bridog]

But why would you go to all that trouble for a boat you don't really want?

I would wait and get the one you want. But that's just me.

Sorry, but I'm glad it didn't work out. I think alot like Turtle Tone.

 

[Turtlesboat]

I looked at many many 280's from 2001-2006 and not a one had a genny in it here in the new york area. I've heard of ones with a genny but never saw one, it would also be a really tight fit with T4.3's. single engine 280's aren't much of a discount either. I looked at about 20 280's and only 1 stood out to me and I knew it when I saw it. It just jumped up at me. I have to say i'm really really glad I plowed through so many and picked this one. It's painful to walk away over and over but it almost takes that many to know when a good one comes up. I mean one that is exceptional.

If you are anything like me, you'd regret not getting one you want. you might not have many options with a genny but you never know. I couldn't find one with a genny so that was my compromise, but I haven't missed having one yet. we'll see when it's august and 100 degrees on the hook. :lol:

 

[fwebster]

I don't have a dog in this fight (not a sport cruiser owner), but I do have an opinion........

There are too many very good to excellent used boats out there to consider a "make do" purchase. You obviously are not a motivated buyer, so why get in a hurry? Spend you time looking and concentrating on enjoying your present boat as well as getting your finances in order so you are comfortable pulling the trigger quickly when the right boat comes along.

We began looking in 1994 for a diesel boat....in 1997 the right boat came along at the right price.....we shook hands with the dealer on Thursday and closed on Friday before 4 other couples who were scheduled to see the boat on the weekend could get to town. That was 10 years ago and, for me, waiting on the right boat saved me from endless "I should have's" and 3 footitis.

 

[Turtlesboat]

Take it from Frank, he knocked some sense into my head when I had none. :smt021

 

[Presentation]

OK, no argument – I am glad it did not work out. :thumbsup:

Its too far away from my ideal boat and too far away geographically.

However this is still bothering me. :smt017

This boat was listed on e-bay with a ‘Buy-it-now†price of $62,000 and it had expired.

The ad included “Moving – Must sell by May 15†and “*** BRING ALL REASONABLE OFFERS ***â€

Long story short, I offered $48,369.25 and had a sheet to explain how I got to my price, including me paying shipping, etc. and they said $60,000 is the bottom. I passed.

Two things I learned:
#1) Sellers lie in their ads. No way do they MUST SELL by May 15th or they would have been more price flexible.
#2) Bring All Reasonable Offers – is just a come on line to get you to call them.

Since they wrote the advertisement in such a way I am mad at them. Had they not given me the impression in the ad that they did I would not have wasted time checking on shipping expenses, etc.

Say they came to somewhere in the middle on price, I still would not have went for it but would not be mad a them for being so deceitful in their ad.

In the end I’m glad it did not work out. They wasted my time because of the way they did their ad. I hope they sit on that boat, stuck with payments, depreciation and expenses for years.
:smt013

 

[GJarrett]

I’m looking at a 2003 280DA for sale.

I have not yet sold my boat, a 1998 240DA. I did find someone that seems very much in a spot that needs to sell so I figure if I buy the 280DA at enough of a deal it would be worth it.

Basically, this is not my ideal boat. The boat is ½ way across the country. I want a generator, trailer, twin 4.3L w/Alpha’s. Boat is a 03 Sea Ray 280 Sundancer.

8.1L Single Engine, Bravo III, Camper Canvas, Cockpit Cover, AC/Heat, Butane only Stove, Windlass, Spotlight, no Generator

Here is how I have determined my asking price:

My ideal boat value $85,000.00 (2003 DA-T 4.3L + gen, trailer)
No Gen $(8,000.00)
No trailer $(7,000.00)
Transportation $(3,000.00)
Fly out / inspect $(500.00)
Local survey $(600.00)
Single engine $(6,000.00)
$59,900.00
Private party - 5 % (split the 10% broker comish)
Sub $56,905.00
Fast sale risk $-15%
Final $48,369.25

I would be taking all the risk, buying it before I sell my boat and go the expense and hassle of buying this so far away and transporting it here.

Is this reasonable?

Any one see anything I missed?

I hope they sit on that boat, stuck with payments, depreciation and expenses for years.

I don't have a dog in this show either but it seems to me that you're wishing a lot of ill will on someone you don't even know for not being willing to pay all of your costs to sell you something you don't want for less than it is worth. It's distressing to see the level of resentment you harbor over this to a complete stranger.

I'm not nearly as well versed in boat negotiations as most others on this board - especially those such as Frank - but I can relate it to another high-ticket item that I am very familiar with - real estate. So as I'm reading your posts I'm thinking of it from that angle. That may not be fair or even relevant, but just as food for thought here's how I read this event:

To start my analogy I note that boattrader currently has fifteen 2003 280DA's listed for sale and the cheapest asking price out of the whole bunch is $73,900, so I'm looking at it as if I was selling a house for $73,900. Let's double the figure to make it a more realistic house and give you the $148k house, and ask both of us to give each other equal and fair consideration.

Let's trade. You've got your house on the market for $148k because that is what it's worth. I want your house. Sort of. It's not really ideal, but I'll take it in trade for my boat that you sort of want. I know you'll get a lot of local buyers that won't incur expenses to come look at your house, but I'm not local so I expect you to pay me several thousands of dollars for all of the expenses I'll incur by hiring people longdistance - real estate attorneys, inspectors, appraisers, etc and all of my travel fees. Even though many may like your house just the way it is, I don't like your paint or carpet scheme, I was hoping for a stone fireplace instead of your brick fireplace, and the appliances aren't what I want either - so I expect you to pay for all of that too. Since I already have a home, I'll have to bother with selling it. I know that's none of your responsibility but evenso I'll also expect you to pay me some amount of compensation for the trouble I'll have selling my own house to do this deal. Finally since I think I'm taking on a risk for selling it fast I'll expect another 15% "fast sale risk" reduction on top of everything else I expect from you to give you the privelege of selling your house to me (I don't quite understand how I'm risking 15% to sell fast but it sounds good so let's subtract that just like you are for my boat).

To use the exact same ratio of your offer for my boat (65% of asking price/value), I'll do the deal if you sell me your house for $96k which is the same 65% deal you are offering me for my boat.

I know most people define "reasonable offer" as something way above 65% of value but since your definition is only 65% I'll be glad to use your own definition in this deal. While you are at it and have defined "reasonable" as 65%, I'll be glad to also offer you a reasonable 65% of the Kelly Blue Book value for all of your autos to help close this deal on your house. I'm sure you will be eager to jump at the chance.

Deal? No? Then I hope your house gets fire damage that prevents others from wanting to buy it and you end up stuck with it uninsured with further major expenses for years to come.

............................................

I hope I misread these posts, but that's how they came across on the printed page to me. I don't have the emotional energy to harbor resentments in this life and I hope and pray you don't either, life's too short for it. As others have posted, I'd hope that you wait for the right boat so that all parties are happy and satisfied, and don't worry when a single deal doesn't work out..... there's a lot of 280DAs out there and one will be the "right" one sooner or later :smt001

 

[fwebster]

Presentation,

I really hope this does not offend you, or the guys who make a living selling stuff either, for that matter. My approach to this may be too simplistic and pragmatic, but, there is entirely too emotion in this for you. Once the money gets as high as the $48K you offered, it gets to be a business deal and there is no room for emotion. If you let your feelings get involved you will buy the wrong boat, pay too much or get mad, none of which is healthy or achieves the desired result.

One of my cardinal rules (cars, boats, houses, tractors or their kin) is to never believe anything a salesman or an ad says. I verify everything including the make model and year, and in some manner I confirm everything I'm told.

One of the key questions I ask an individual who is selling a big ticket item is "Do you have any dept on this item and is it collateral for the loan." If there is and if he's driving a new car and wears expensive shoes and carries a Blackberry, I figure I'm not going to steal what he's selling because he owe's more on it than I'm willing to pay.

So.......... back to square one. Boat buying isn't a trip; it is a journey' and its supposed to be fun. It really gets fun when you can look the seller in the eye and negotiate his pants off..... ebay and other websites are great for gathering information, but as you have found, they are impersonal and there can be problems with bad information, flaky sellers, crooks, etc.

Enjoy the journey................

 

[Presentation]

One of my cardinal rules (cars, boats, houses, tractors or their kin) is to never believe anything a salesman or an ad says. I verify everything including the make model and year, and in some manner I confirm everything I'm told.
...

Excellent advice. I have been looking and have found ad’s with errors so I agree with you.

Hey, at least with all this I have determined what boat I really want. I’m confident I am OK with going back another year for cost savings.

So it’s a 2002 or 2003 280DA with twin 4.3L + Alpha’s. If the boat does not have this it will not be considered.

Preferred but not a deal buster:
Camper top
Winless
Generator
Trailer

I am seeking a boat with the worst of the depreciation behind it and seeking a value so when it comes time to sell the loss will be less. To help achieve this ‘value buy’ I am willing to shop and wait, buy a boat in late summer / fall and willing to buy a non-local boat however buying at either the end of the season or from a far away location does mean I need the value to be even greater then a local, spring or early summer buy.

I’m also going to focus on private party sales to save the 10% broker commission. Actually, given the internet listing sites like boattrader, boats, etc., I don’t see value in brokers anymore.

Here is what I am using as reasonable:
2002 280DA w/twins, camper top, winless, trailer = $65,000 in spring / early summer in reasonably good condition, around the sub 400 hours range.
- If late summer / fall – deduct $5,000 for the 8 months the boat must be stored before use.
- If a 2003 – add $3,500.
- If generator – add ???? If no generator I may get a Honda 2000i.
- If not twin 4.3L w/Alpha's I will not even consider it again.

 

[Turtlesboat]

I still think you might be a little low in price, at least that's my experience in my area. Not to say there aren't 280's for that price, but you are close to the bottom of the barrel.

another thing to consider is EFI vs MPI. the dividing mark seems to be 2002 to 2003 with the majority of them switching over to MPI in 2003. you get more horses for the same amount of juice.

Happy Hunting.

 

[CSR_Admin]

What does the broker commission have to do with the price :huh: A boat is worth a given amount considering its equipment, market condidtions etc. Whether it is FSBO or through a broker it should bring that amount. The sellers net is really nobody's business but the seller, should they choose to take a lower net to reduce their involvement in the sale that is up to them.

 

[jg300da]

- If late summer / fall – deduct $5,000 for the 8 months the boat must be stored before use.
- If a 2003 – add $3,500.

Not sure how realistic these numbers are. Deduct $5k for storage? Why would the seller care how long YOU had to store the boat? How would that impact the value of HIS boat?

Ad $3500 for a 2003? Why? couldn't some 2002's have more value than some 2003's?

Sounds like you have already placed some limit on what you're willing to spend, which is fine, but I'm not sure you can impose that limit on the market and then wish ill will on those that wont meet it.

 

[Presentation]

...... and then wish ill will on those that wont meet it.

Boy-oh-boy is this turning around backwards making me look like the bad guy.

They lied to me.

I have no issue with a seller holding firm to any given price. Shoot, if the want to put it up for sale for a $Million, good luck.

I have an issue with the seller saying “MUST SELL BY MAY 15†and “BRING ALL REASONABLE OFFERS†as come on lines, getting my attention and wasting my time.

In our conversations they wanted an offer and NOW!!! C-mon, make us an offer. I explained in my first communications with the seller that I was not local, that we have boats for sale in Wisconsin and the ONLY reason for me to consider this is if it was a DEAL well below market to justify my buying from so far away and buying now, before my current boat sold and was worth the expense of me coming out, checking out the boat and having it hauled back and extra to justify it.

So what would have been in it for them? Why a fast sale of course.

They egged me on. When my offer finally came they held to $60,000. Had they communicated this early, a maximum price reduction of only 3%, that they had no real MAY 15 urgent deadline, that they just were looking to sell for as high as possible like every other seller, then no big deal.

They misrepresented the situation to me and thus they lied. That is the point here.

 

[Presentation]

What does the broker commission have to do with the price :huh: A boat is worth a given amount considering its equipment, market condidtions etc. Whether it is FSBO or through a broker it should bring that amount. The sellers net is really nobody's business but the seller, should they choose to take a lower net to reduce their involvement in the sale that is up to them.

In concept, I agree with your above logic.

In reality…..from my own personal experience only…..dealing with the specific brokers I have talked with only……I have had two issues with dealing with boat brokers:

#1) the brokers knew far less about the boats in general AND the features of the specific boat then when I was able to talk directly to the owner.

I am going to ‘guess’ that on higher end boats, boats that get into and beyond 6 figures, the better, more knowledgeable brokers would spend their time here for their own financial best interest.

In the sub $100,000 broker market you get the ‘newbie’s’ and other less flattering terms that I should not post.

I’ve had brokers give me blatantly incorrect information that any reasonably educated boating enthusiast would know is wrong. I chalk this up to boat brokers that are brokers because they were offered a job, not boating enthusiasts who are also boat brokers.

Just one example, after making it clear, and I mean VERY CLEAR that I wanted to know what ‘options’ a boat had the broker kept going over what he said was a LOADED boat, then named standard features for this specific boat. I even re-clarified but it did no good. The specific broker had no clue about the difference between a model’s standard features and an option. One broker argued a boat came with a camper top when the pictures he just emailed me made it clear it had only a bimini. The pictures clearly showed the hardware was not even on the boat for the camper top. I talked to him a bit more and realized he did not know the difference. One said a boat came with a ‘Magnum†engine. After more verification on my end I found out it did not then he said he did not know any engine was not a magnum. He just heard the term, it sounded good so he started using it.

#2) Brokers try to sell you what they have, not what you want.

Again I must caution and clarify “…..from my own personal experience only…..dealing with the specific brokers I have talked with only……â€

I had tried to work with one local broker. He wanted to know what I wanted in a boat. I made a list of what I wanted, what were ‘deal-busters’ and what I considered to be ‘non-deal busters – but would be nice and would pay more if….’ and put it in writing and sent it to him. I also made it clear that I had already looked at 3 online sources, boat trader, boats and yachting.

All he did is he went to the very same websites I already went to, kept finding boats that did not even pass my ‘deal-buster’ list and filled my voice mail and email account. I went so far as to revisit with him my ‘deal-buster’ requirements but he kept sending boats outside of this, and none within it. I asked him to stop. He did briefly but as the end of the month approached he started up again. Finally I put his email address on my ‘spam’ list and stopped returning calls from him.





The boat broker business may be worse in my market then in say Florida, New York or other large markets.

The average boat in Northern Wisconsin is smaller, with anything over 30’ causing heads to turn, and the season is short, with few boats sold for ½ the year and the average boater in Wisconsin is a trailer boater. So the market is likely disproportionately small, meaning a quality boat broker goes somewhere else.

So based on my experience only, I came to this conclusion. At one time, before the internet and websites that allow boat owners to self-list their boats, the broker helped bring buyers and sellers together. For the buyer they were able to weed thru all the boats and find the ones that met the buyer’s requests and for the seller they offered to find buyers.

The brokers were enthusiasts that had more knowledge about the boats then most of the buyers / sellers. They earned their commission and it was a professional carrier.

Today, in my local area, by my own experience, the professional brokers have moved onto different carriers. Turnover of boat brokers is high. At my local marina where I slip my boat, this year not one sales person was there last year. Last year only one was there the year before. None are boat enthusiasts or boat owners. They become confused at the difference between Radar and a Chartplotter.

 

[Nehalennia II]

Pres,
Where is this boat?

 

[Presentation]

Ad $3500 for a 2003? Why? couldn't some 2002's have more value.

All else being the same, same condition, features, hours, etc., each model year newer normally adds to the value of the boat, specifically over the first 10 years. Or at least that is was I have always understood.


New to used takes the biggest hit.
Current model year but used to 1 year old model year takes the second biggest hit.
1 year old to 2 year old takes the third biggest hit

And so on, with less $ off each subsequent year, for the first 10 years. After that the time part is pretty much done and you are down to condition and other things.

If someone said it’s a 5 year or 15 year cycle I would have no argument. But the trend is there, all else being equal, newer means more $.

 

[Presentation]

Pres,
Where is this boat?

Eastern Maryland

I see they just re-listed it however the “MUST SELL BY MAY 15th†is no longer in the ad. :grin: