1999 454 Mag MPI just quits - videos

Discussion in 'Gas Engines/Drives/Transmissions/Props' started by 370Dancer, Oct 30, 2020.

  1. techmitch

    techmitch Well-Known Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    May 1, 2008
    Chesapeake Bay, Middle River/Frog Mortar Creek MD.
    1999 270 DA
    Twin 4.3s W/Alpa I Gen II's
    Isn't that the type of timing cover that is supposed to go on first before the oil pan?
     
  2. douglee25

    douglee25 Well-Known Member

    Jan 13, 2008
    Dallas, TX
    Cruisers 3575
    Twin 7.4l
    Exactly what I thinking. You have to drop the pan to get that off. Once you disturb the pan, it's going to leak unless you replace the gasket. I'd still recommend pulling the motor.
     
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  3. HawkX66

    HawkX66 Well-Known Member

    Jul 27, 2020
    SE Virginia and NH
    "Tread Knot"
    1997 Sea Ray Sundancer 290DA

    2020 F350 6.7L
    454 L29 Carb w/ Bravo III
    Yes. Some guys will cut the rear lip off the back of the timing cover to get it in there. No thanks... Too much work to find a leak when you're done.
     
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  4. techmitch

    techmitch Well-Known Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    May 1, 2008
    Chesapeake Bay, Middle River/Frog Mortar Creek MD.
    1999 270 DA
    Twin 4.3s W/Alpa I Gen II's
    That is exactly why I mentioned it, that lip is there for a reason. Seen those hack jobs before... They no longer work here! If the bean counters could have done away with it, it wouldn't be there.
     
    HawkX66 likes this.
  5. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    Looks like I'm smarter now........
    Thanks for the heads up.
     
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  6. douglee25

    douglee25 Well-Known Member

    Jan 13, 2008
    Dallas, TX
    Cruisers 3575
    Twin 7.4l
    You won't regret doing it right.
     
    techmitch likes this.
  7. SEAWOLF

    SEAWOLF Member SILVER Sponsor

    64
    Nov 15, 2020
    NJ
    1998 Sea Ray 370 Amberjack EC
    CAT 3126 - 420 HP
    Just had the same boatporn problem the Exhaust valve is bad and sucked water. 20211203_172859.jpg
     
  8. techmitch

    techmitch Well-Known Member PLATINUM Sponsor

    May 1, 2008
    Chesapeake Bay, Middle River/Frog Mortar Creek MD.
    1999 270 DA
    Twin 4.3s W/Alpa I Gen II's
    Not so sure that electric oil filled radiator is such a good idea in a gas boats engine bilge (the lowest point) on the boat. Please tell me it has some kind of ignition protection that I've never heard on those or, your going to get it out of there ASAP? Please be careful!
     
  9. SEAWOLF

    SEAWOLF Member SILVER Sponsor

    64
    Nov 15, 2020
    NJ
    1998 Sea Ray 370 Amberjack EC
    CAT 3126 - 420 HP
    No, I don’t leave the heater , it’s dangerous only when I work there, but it has protection.
     
  10. douglee25

    douglee25 Well-Known Member

    Jan 13, 2008
    Dallas, TX
    Cruisers 3575
    Twin 7.4l
    You got that engine running yet??:)
     
  11. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    Having a hard time getting around to yanking the block. Did confirm that the timing cover's not going on unless the oil pan is taken off, so here I sit. Stacked up at work, so not much play time. Debating bringing a boom truck in and pulling it here, or one engine it over to what's left of our yards, and yank the whole thing for a bottom paint (which it doesn't really need), and hull wax (which it really does need). Only time and money. But on the bright side, I do have 4 other boats, so never without a way to get on the water.
    Maybe I'll hire Scoff to come lift it out for me, and then bark at me on what I'm doing wrong while putting it back together. Gonna run over to N.E. Taylor's today or Monday and see what the lay of the land is there. NOBODY lets you work on your own shit in the yard anymore.
     
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  12. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    D-Day is Monday at 3pm, my place. I'll see if I can get someone to shoot some pics as I will be busy on the dumb end of the lift, trying not to beat the boat up in the process. Then, it's off to the races. I literally have everything except a replacement oil pan gasket and a new oil pump, because..... as long as I'm in there.....
    Let's hope for smooth bearings.

    BTW so far, smarter guys than me are calling a leaking head gasket for the issue, and my water intrusion wasn't necessarily salt. I will say I had some disappearing coolant over runs. Time and sweat will tell.
     
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  13. scoflaw

    scoflaw Well-Known Member

    Aug 10, 2011
    cape cod mass, cape coral fl
    1999 Powerquest legend 260 sx
    502 mpi Bravo 1
    Just saw this, if I can be of any help let me know I;m close by.
     
    Chris-380 likes this.
  14. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    Thought you were being awfully quiet. Hopefully no damage with recent storm activity down there. We barely got rain.
    You are welcome anytime to have a look at what's here. Probably cracking the pan mid week next week to have a peek at the bearings and oil pump. Still working on last minute details of where I'll be working the block, but probably onsite.
    I'll start a conversation with you for details.
     
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  15. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    OK, as I close in on the removal, something is coming to mind here.
    The engine is torn down to the block, i.e. no heads, intake manifold or bolt ons.
    Block to bell housing, to V-Drive transmission. one set of engine mounts to the block, the other set on the transmission.
    what do I hang the engine from? I have plenty of choices in the front where the bolt on's were, but now how about the rear? I didn't want to take the bell housing with me if I can help it, but I may have no choice.
    I know the guys in the yard back in 2017 accomplished it, leaving the bell housing on the transmission, and then also put it back like that. but they had heads to bolt the lifting chain to.
    I'm leery about using a head bolt into the block at the angle they are at compared to the lifting force of the chain.
    The only 2 clear choices I see are put the heads back on and quit whining, or unbolt the bell housing from the transmission (4 bolts, but knuckle busters) and take it with the block out of the engine.

    What say you, smart people? gotta figure this out by Saturday.
    front of blockturned.jpeg

    bell housing bolt holes 1 turned.jpeg

    trans to bell housing bolts 2 turned.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
  16. scoflaw

    scoflaw Well-Known Member

    Aug 10, 2011
    cape cod mass, cape coral fl
    1999 Powerquest legend 260 sx
    502 mpi Bravo 1
    Head bolt holes, 7/16 bolts might bend a bit but no biggie
     
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  17. Chris-380

    Chris-380 Well-Known Member

    Jan 20, 2019
    Pontoon Beach IL
    2000 380 Sundancer
    7.4L Horizon w/V drives
    techmitch likes this.
  18. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    I used a couple of 1.5" 7/16-14 grade 5 bolts that were fastened to the top row head bolt slots. My chains had an L shaped bracket on one end which wound up being a perfect angle to the hook, so no bending or thread worries.
    The boom truck showed up, put his legs down, and in less than 30 minutes, even with me forgetting about the bottom bolts of the engine mounts, it was all over. Surgery complete, and the block is hanging on my engine crane in the garage. Scof, rain tomorrow afternoon, and still planning on having it on an engine stand Wednesday, flipping it over, and checking the bearings. You are welcome to come check it out, along with the cylinder walls. Still looking for the "right" shop with the "right" schedule, so it may sit around for a bit before we go to high gear.
    I didn't even have time to take a picture. Oh well, I guess it didn't really happen then.
     
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  19. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    This woke me up last night.
    The decision to replace the heads was based on 2 things. The likely hood that the valve train was weak, allowing the valves to float at 3200+rpm, which caused the engine to fall off until rpms reduced to 2000 or so, and then back strong. The other was telltale signs of water intrusion in the cylinders, which I was chalking up to reversion. Other that that, especially if you read the entire thread, By the time we got to this point, the engine started fine, idled fine, shifted fine, ran fine. This side rattled a little at dead idle out of gear, which could be anything from misfire to damper, to "oh, that's normal".
    Getting into the heads revealed that the head gaskets did exhibit some signs of not being completely seated (dark between the cylinders instead of shiny silver, and I did find a head bolt or 2 that were definitely not torqued down to spec.
    We looked at the cam, and found some scratches on #8 lobe. Not big, but hey, we're this far...... Remember this is the one that had a ball tip come off the top of the pushrod, and punch through the rocker once upon a time. (2018. I replaced the pushrod and rocker).
    When removing the timing cover, we were presented 2 things. One, the inner lip of the timing cover was broken off in a couple of spots, and the pieces were lying in the oil pan. So, whomever went into this motor before I got it, had cracked or broken the timing cover lip trying to get it off or on without dropping the oil pan. For us, it just lifted off. I didn't even know there was a lip until I flipped it over and saw the missing pieces. The other thing, which I haven't spoken about may be the most important. The timing chain was so loose, I could almost get it off without removing the camshaft gear!. So, here's what woke me up:
    A loose timing chain would probably rattle a lot at low speed. Is that what I hearing, and the rattle had nothing to do with the transmission?
    A loose timing chain would also retard the timing, would it not? The faster you go, the more pronounced the effect?
    The ECU wouldn't reflect this because it's firing when it thinks it should, but the mechanicals are lagging. Could that have caused the fall off at cruise speed?
    Gawd, I hate/love/hate/love motors.....
     
  20. 370Dancer

    370Dancer Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2006
    Florida - Alabama
    1998 370 Sundancer
    380hp MAG MPI Gen VI with V drives
    But, it just doesn't matter what I pondered in the previous post. Pulled the pistons and crank today.
    #1 cylinder wall has a bit of galling. We'll see where that leads for how far over, and pistons.
    The oil pump pickup screen has a hole in the middle of it. On purpose? I doubt it.
    oil pump screen has a hole in it.jpeg

    The front main bearing has some uneven wear and the crank is scratched some. so, I guessing that will earn a 10 under. We'll see.
    The number 4 or 5 piston bearing had pieces coming off of it. Ugh.
    #4 or #5 bearing shavings.jpeg

    So, in the end, I'm glad we moved forward, I'm not glad the bill's going to be somewhat higher.
    Still, it's time to do it right, 'cause I'm not doing it again.
    The whole pile is off to Innovation Marine early next week to see if we have any more surprises pop up.
     

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