420/44 DB Owners Club

Does anyone know of an easy way to purchase new captain & mate helm chairs? I would like to upgrade as the chairs in our boat are too high, too narrow and don't have a footrest. Also, they are too close to the helm. My husband finds they are too uncomfortable and I'd like to replace them for him. He really only requires one chair but I'd replace both so they match. I went to the Llebrock website but it is so confusing for me. Is there a place I can call and maybe they'd sent a person out to measure and do all the work??? I'm in San Diego, CA.


You might look at Flexsteel seats as a possibility. A friend with a 56DB loves them.

http://www.flexsteel.com/for-recreation/marine/helm-seating
 
well, it seems there's always something I need to attend to on our boat. This time we had a guest allow their folding chair to rub against our glass sliding cockpit door. it scratched off, what looks to be the tinting. I'm not sure if it went all the way down to the glass or just the tinted coating. Does anyone know if Sea Ray used tinted film or if the glass is colored this way? the scratch is dead center and really noticeable. sure don't want to replace the entire door and hoping to find a clean repair or solution to my small dilemma.
 
How long is it? Any pics?
Didn't think to foto it and won't be back there till Friday but the main problem is only about a dime size scratch and then a nice thin long scratch about 14" long. The long scratch is barely noticeable but the "dime size" scratch is the real problem.
 
Some suggestions -

1. If it's tinted, just rip it off and retint.
2. If it's coated, try a permanent magic marker/small brush & paint to see if you can blend it...
3. If it's coated, try tinting directly over top of it (small section first) and see how noticeable the area is with a layer of tint. If it looks good, tint the complete area.
 
Some suggestions -

1. If it's tinted, just rip it off and retint.
2. If it's coated, try a permanent magic marker/small brush & paint to see if you can blend it...
3. If it's coated, try tinting directly over top of it (small section first) and see how noticeable the area is with a layer of tint. If it looks good, tint the complete area.
I just can't tell if it's tinted with film or if the glass has the actual coloring. I know its factory so I guess I'm trying to figure out is whether SR sells this boat with tint film glass or if they use colored glass on these doors???
 
Bit of a long post here, lots of new things to understand!

So we finally got our new purchase up to the chilly water up North. Fairly uneventful trip, other than a partially submerged tug boat in the one of the Erie Canal locks.

Boat ran well, with only one real issue, and a couple of observations. I am hoping to get some opinions and advice on them.

We left Plymouth, MA and the boat ran well with no unusual readings the first day. The second day as we were getting close to NYC, I noticed a differential in the boost pressures. On the sea trial, both engines were showing around 60 psi +/- 1 psi at 2400rpm. This was also what we saw on day 1. On day 2, the port boost dropped to around 28-30 psi. Engine performed identically, no smoke, etc. Tried WOT, right on at 2680 RPM. Everything stayed the same until day 4 when the starboard boost also dropped to 28-30 psi. No change in performance.

20 hours of motoring later and they are still both within 1 psi of each other, around 28-29 psi at 2300-2400 RPM. I spoke to the gentleman who did the engine inspection (Doug Gorham at Gorham's Diesel...great guy, BTW), and he doesn't think it is anything to be concerned about. Any opinions? Reading other posts, it seems around 30 psi is typical. I am curious what others see, and what may explain the 60 psi readings we initially saw.

Another observation is that at around 800-1000 RPM, there is a small shake or shudder...I would describe it almost as a wobble. It is not present at idle speeds nor once up on plane. I was able to isolate it to the starboard engine. The marine surveyor showed me some play in the starboard cutlass bearing, and stated in his report "The starboard propeller shaft strut cutlass bearing found to have some minor play when checked. It is suggested cutlass bearing be renewed winter layup 2018-19".

I am new to straight shafts and cutlass bearings. Would it make sense that what I am experiencing is due to the cutlass bearing? The boat didn't get much use the last couple of seasons...it is possible the bearing deteriorated quickly with the fairly rigorous use of quickly getting north.

Last one, and this was the most significant, although there was an easy work-around. About halfway through the trip it was noticed the engine alternators were not putting out any volts. It seemed surprizing to me that both would fail. They were confirmed operational during the survey / inspection. It was masked somewhat as we were running pretty much all the time with the generator running, and the battery charger on.

A few points and questions about this:
- We did have the house battery charger on when underway. Unnecessary, I know, but being new to the boat and not confident about what batteries were charged by what (e.g. is the generator battery only charged when the charger is on, or does the generator itself charge it, etc.), we left it on under the presumption it would not harm anything. Bad presumption?
- At no time were the battery solenoids turned off.
- The belts were replaced by the marina before we left (based on advice from this and the QSC-500 thread!), and confirmed installed correctly.
- The problem was highlighted when the generator was not run one day, and the batteries ran down after about 10 hours...kind of quickly, I thought.
- Only getting about 12.4V (then slowly dropping) on both engines when underway (and no charger on), and there is no SmartCraft fault, which is strange.
- Could a faulty battery, isolator, or solenoid be the culprit?
- I will measure voltage directly at the alternators this weekend, but I assume the reading will be the same as what is reported by SmartCraft. Is this logical?
- Am I missing something obvious here?

As always, this forum is an incredible resource and wealth of information!

Brian
Not sure if you ever received a reply to your questions, but I can give you some of my experience with that boat, as I owned my 2004 420 Sedan since new. The shake you experience between 800 - 1000 rpm is exactly what I experience and it has always been there. I think it just hits a resonance point at that rpm. I am not planning to try to fix it since it has been there now for 14 years.
As far as the alternators not charging, I have experience with that as well. I had to replace them twice on each engine over the years. They failed in different years, not both at the same time. A friend of mine with the exact same boat also replaced them twice already.
I never knew exactly why they failed, the replacements cost less than $100, so I just swapped them and was good for another 4-5 years.
Last year I discussed that with my authorized Cummins repair guy. He shed some light on this for me that makes sense. The culprit is the cold engine pre heater box on my 450C which pulls 100A when it cycles. If the batteries are a few years old they don’t supply as much juice as they used and the alternator gets more load to handle. It seems the built in regulator is what fails. Since the replacement alternators are cheaper than rebuilding, I never knew for sure the failed component. All I know, they all failed the same way which means no charging at all. The voltmeters on the bridge tell the story if you only see 12V when running the boat instead of about 14V.
 
We all know what opinions are like....lol But, I'm seeking some info/ knowledge/ hesitations or regrets from people who may be in or have been in the same position.

I am considering a move from a 06 380 Dancer to a 04 420 Sedan Bridge. Love the boat and all it has to offer. I am comfortable diagnosing and working on, to some extent, my 8.1 Mercs. The diesel thing, has me stumped and reconsidering my decision to make the move. Seems like a lot of preventative maintenance and service issues. I know they last longer than gas, and are more economical, but appears if something goes wrong, hold on to your wallet. Of course surveys, etc. would be done. And I would consider the engine survey being done by a certified diesel mechanic, but I just don't know enough about them to question certain things like I would a gas motor.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt this way. Would love to hear feedback.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
 
You're at the break point on a 38' boat for sure on the whole diesel vs. gas argument.

At 42', that's diesel territory for sure. Properly maintained, diesels will last longer than you will own the boat. Unfortunately you may/may not know the history of the engines at the time of purchase. A proper survey is the best bet to make a determination on the engine's health. Like anything, it's a gamble. Do your own maintenance and you can save a bunch of costs.
 
bajturner (brian)

We have a 05 420 with the Cummins CTA's, I've only had the boat 3 months and love it but like you when I bought the boat I had nothing but questions. I also had 1 bad alternator while the previous owner stated he replaced the opposite alternator last year. According to 2 mechanics that I hired to help with the mechanical survey, they both told me to NEVER run the motors and the battery chargers simultaneously, they both said the alternator would lose the struggle every time (for whatever that's worth). I'm still trying to figure this all out myself. Getting back to your pre-start on the ignition, you'll notice when you push the starter button to the first click, your amp gauge will drop to 10 amps. Whatever you do, DO NOT try to start the motor until the amp gauge returns to a minimum of 12 amps. This will alleviate the stress on the charging system by not trying to start the motors while the ignition is still in its warm-up stage.
 
Not sure if you ever received a reply to your questions, but I can give you some of my experience with that boat, as I owned my 2004 420 Sedan since new. The shake you experience between 800 - 1000 rpm is exactly what I experience and it has always been there. I think it just hits a resonance point at that rpm. I am not planning to try to fix it since it has been there now for 14 years.
As far as the alternators not charging, I have experience with that as well. I had to replace them twice on each engine over the years. They failed in different years, not both at the same time. A friend of mine with the exact same boat also replaced them twice already.
I never knew exactly why they failed, the replacements cost less than $100, so I just swapped them and was good for another 4-5 years.
Last year I discussed that with my authorized Cummins repair guy. He shed some light on this for me that makes sense. The culprit is the cold engine pre heater box on my 450C which pulls 100A when it cycles. If the batteries are a few years old they don’t supply as much juice as they used and the alternator gets more load to handle. It seems the built in regulator is what fails. Since the replacement alternators are cheaper than rebuilding, I never knew for sure the failed component. All I know, they all failed the same way which means no charging at all. The voltmeters on the bridge tell the story if you only see 12V when running the boat instead of about 14V.

bajturner (brian)

We have a 05 420 with the Cummins CTA's, I've only had the boat 3 months and love it but like you when I bought the boat I had nothing but questions. I also had 1 bad alternator while the previous owner stated he replaced the opposite alternator last year. According to 2 mechanics that I hired to help with the mechanical survey, they both told me to NEVER run the motors and the battery chargers simultaneously, they both said the alternator would lose the struggle every time (for whatever that's worth). I'm still trying to figure this all out myself. Getting back to your pre-start on the ignition, you'll notice when you push the starter button to the first click, your amp gauge will drop to 10 amps. Whatever you do, DO NOT try to start the motor until the amp gauge returns to a minimum of 12 amps. This will alleviate the stress on the charging system by not trying to start the motors while the ignition is still in its warm-up stage.
 
We all know what opinions are like....lol But, I'm seeking some info/ knowledge/ hesitations or regrets from people who may be in or have been in the same position.

I am considering a move from a 06 380 Dancer to a 04 420 Sedan Bridge. Love the boat and all it has to offer. I am comfortable diagnosing and working on, to some extent, my 8.1 Mercs. The diesel thing, has me stumped and reconsidering my decision to make the move. Seems like a lot of preventative maintenance and service issues. I know they last longer than gas, and are more economical, but appears if something goes wrong, hold on to your wallet. Of course surveys, etc. would be done. And I would consider the engine survey being done by a certified diesel mechanic, but I just don't know enough about them to question certain things like I would a gas motor.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt this way. Would love to hear feedback.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
Diesels are super easy to learn.

They are safer. There is no ignition system. No plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, rotor. Since there is no spark there are no flame arrestors or threat of engine room explosion. Diesel fuel is just basically an oil that gets compressed enough by the cylinders to get it to auto ignite.

Oil changes cost more but are real easy to do as oil extraction pumps are installed. You'll be using 5 gallons per engine, not 5-7 quarts.

The most tedious job is to keep the seawater cooling path completely clear and operating normally at all times. In salt water that means flushing them every couple of years and occasionally taking the components off the engine to clean them. For do it yourself owners it's an easy and inexpensive job but tedious. If you pay it out then it's expensive because it's mostly all labor and marine labor costs a lot.

There are turbos on diesel boats that plane. Not much maintenance to them but they do wear down and need rebuild or replacement every 10-15 years or so.

Diesel fuel needs to be sure it's cleaned up really well before it sees the engines. So there are two layers of filters to change annually. First in line are Racor canister filters that take out the big stuff and any water. Then there is a spin on filter at the engine that takes out the small stuff. Easy do it yourself job.

I have owned both and I will not buy an inboard gas engine boat again. It'll be either outboards or diesel.
 
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ZZ13, thanks for your reply and the insight. Your post really took a lot of concern away from my "diesel fear." I hope that I can put something together to jump on the 420! Again, thanks.!
 
I was where you are a year ago.
ZZ13, thanks for your reply and the insight. Your post really took a lot of concern away from my "diesel fear." I hope that I can put something together to jump on the 420! Again, thanks.!

I was where you are a year ago. Took the plunge from a 260DA to a 44DB last August. The engines were and still are a little intimidating. However, by reading and asking questions, they get easier every day. Just finished up all annual maintenance about a month ago. I only need to change the impellers to have a baseline on them. I have followed Frank Webster's Diesel Fuel Management to the letter with exactly "0" issues. Racor filter changes as well as all primaries were simple and straightforward. I had a hull surveyor as well as a Cummins tech on board for a day. He hooked up to the engine computers and found the lone alert-a low coolant alert. Engines ran out perfect as did the hull survey. All fluid samples came back good to go as well. Good luck!

Bennett
 
Not sure if you ever received a reply to your questions, but I can give you some of my experience with that boat, as I owned my 2004 420 Sedan since new. The shake you experience between 800 - 1000 rpm is exactly what I experience and it has always been there. I think it just hits a resonance point at that rpm. I am not planning to try to fix it since it has been there now for 14 years.
As far as the alternators not charging, I have experience with that as well. I had to replace them twice on each engine over the years. They failed in different years, not both at the same time. A friend of mine with the exact same boat also replaced them twice already.
I never knew exactly why they failed, the replacements cost less than $100, so I just swapped them and was good for another 4-5 years.
Last year I discussed that with my authorized Cummins repair guy. He shed some light on this for me that makes sense. The culprit is the cold engine pre heater box on my 450C which pulls 100A when it cycles. If the batteries are a few years old they don’t supply as much juice as they used and the alternator gets more load to handle. It seems the built in regulator is what fails. Since the replacement alternators are cheaper than rebuilding, I never knew for sure the failed component. All I know, they all failed the same way which means no charging at all. The voltmeters on the bridge tell the story if you only see 12V when running the boat instead of about 14V.

Where can you get the alternator for $100 and also do you have a part number please?
 
I hope I can get some info on this , while troubleshooting a 4 gallon split in fuel flow,which turned out to be an indication problem ,I also noted a large split in Load percentage. At 81% throttle the port engine was 67%,Stb 49%. At 2670 port 91% Stb 70%. All other engine parameters fairly even, at 2250 Rpm the boat tracks reasonably straight ,I'm hoping this too is an indication issue, is there a way to swap transmitters or whatever the smart craft uses to measure load? Also I find the boat needs to have trim tabs all the way down to plane correctly, without full down, the boat looses a few knots and the exhaust note changes considerably . 2006 44 with QSC 500s,600hrs.
 
I hope I can get some info on this , while troubleshooting a 4 gallon split in fuel flow,which turned out to be an indication problem ,I also noted a large split in Load percentage. At 81% throttle the port engine was 67%,Stb 49%. At 2670 port 91% Stb 70%. All other engine parameters fairly even, at 2250 Rpm the boat tracks reasonably straight ,I'm hoping this too is an indication issue, is there a way to swap transmitters or whatever the smart craft uses to measure load? Also I find the boat needs to have trim tabs all the way down to plane correctly, without full down, the boat looses a few knots and the exhaust note changes considerably . 2006 44 with QSC 500s,600hrs.

Pretty sure load is a calculation based on fuel flow so if your flow indicators are off the load calc will be off. How did you determine the flow indicators are off?

I am assuming since your in CT, that the bottom and props are clean when you got those numbers since you probably just recently launched? If not is the performance different than last year or is this boat new to you?
 
Pretty sure load is a calculation based on fuel flow so if your flow indicators are off the load calc will be off. How did you determine the flow indicators are off?

I am assuming since your in CT, that the bottom and props are clean when you got those numbers since you probably just recently launched? If not is the performance different than last year or is this boat new to you?
I topped the tanks and ran the boat for 3 hrs with the port engine showing 4 gallons higher, without using the generator, topped tanks again, the starboard tank took one gallon more than the port , This is my 3rd season with the boat, same performance each year. Thanks for your reply,and if load factor uses fuel flow as a calculation that explains why the boat tracks straight.
 
We all know what opinions are like....lol But, I'm seeking some info/ knowledge/ hesitations or regrets from people who may be in or have been in the same position.

I am considering a move from a 06 380 Dancer to a 04 420 Sedan Bridge. Love the boat and all it has to offer. I am comfortable diagnosing and working on, to some extent, my 8.1 Mercs. The diesel thing, has me stumped and reconsidering my decision to make the move. Seems like a lot of preventative maintenance and service issues. I know they last longer than gas, and are more economical, but appears if something goes wrong, hold on to your wallet. Of course surveys, etc. would be done. And I would consider the engine survey being done by a certified diesel mechanic, but I just don't know enough about them to question certain things like I would a gas motor.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt this way. Would love to hear feedback.
Thanks in advance,
Mark

Hello Mark, my name's Joe. I just did EXACTLY what you're contemplating. We purchased a 05 420 sedan bridge 3 months ago and everything you're saying is true and I struggled with those same questions and answers before I made the move from our gas-powered Carver.
All you really gotta ask yourself is this one question, Do I wanna go out to the open ocean and really go somewhere in safety and confidence? Or, are you happy with the occasional harbor cruise? If the answer is Harbor cruise, then keep the gas boat. Just sayin'
 

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