So many questions before buying...

s022mag

New Member
Apr 17, 2017
28
Croton, OH
Boat Info
1998 330DA
Engines
7.4 EFIs
I currently own a 2000 Donzi 38ZX and I want to buy/trade in on either a 450DA or 410DA. I'd like to go diesel but I'm not for sure about the Cat motors. I've heard there was some issues but thats all I've heard. I know there's a few different models 3116 3126 and 3208s that's all I've seen for sale. I've also seen Cummins and heard those are great?

Might next question is Salt or freshwater boat. It doesn't scare me to buy a salt water boat, I just need to know what to look for and what extra maintenance should I look at. I will be keeping the boat in freshwater for only about 7 months out of the year, the rest the boat will be winterized.

I appreciated any comments or directions to other post.
Matt
 
There are 100s if not 1000s of threads here about buying boats, pros/cons of Cats, Cummins, gas, diesel, etc. Do a search and read until your heart is content. JVM225 has posted one thread above.

I will say one thing that I have learned in response to your post....there is no right answer...it depends. It depends on how you will use the boat. It will depend on how and what maintenance has been performed on any single boat. It depends on a lot of things. Take your time, understand your choices, and enjoy the process. As you gain knowledge and can ask more specific questions, you will get some answers.

Bennett
 
Matt, The 450DA or 410DA are awesome boats. A little prejudice because I owned one for 9 years. The Cats ? has been discussed on this site numerous times. Do a search and you should find a lot of information. FrankW and some other owners know these models inside out. I am sure they will be along. Good luck on your search. GOD bless. JC
 
1998 450 with 3116s, 975 hrs. Had it for 4 years now and could not be more satisfied. I do all my own maintenance, easy to work on and a lot of room. ours was fresh water always, Main thing is finding one that has been cared for. We did do some maintenance on things the previous owner let go, Replaced all the waste lines, Rebuilt vac pumps and heads. You can do a lot of fixing for the price difference in our year boat and a newer model. No computer controlled engines is a big plus in my opinion. Sound hull in good shape, Cats serviced regularly and good records, You won,t be disappointed.
 
Start shopping now! Finding a good, clean used boat is not easy. One mans "meticulous" is quite often another mans "rode hard, put away wet".

My best advice - be willing to walk away. Multiple times. I don't know your budget but if you're looking for something similar in age/value to your Donzi I think you'll find there are more "projects" out there than there are true, turn-key cruisers. There's a reason you'll see $50k-100k differences in list prices on boattrader for what appear to be the same make/model/year of boat....

Good luck and have fun!
 
Hi Matt!!

Took this journey last year. JVM posted the full 410 thread, I read it all twice while I was purchasing my boat. I have a 2000 410 and there were/are several maint. items I did and have to do on the engines. For the CATs find a local dealer and have them do a mechanical survey on the engines. Runs $1500 to $2000 depending on travel and it will give you at least that much maint. information to negotiate with or will confirm the excellent condition the engines are in. I set up the survey first, then the engines. That way if the survey uncovered anything I could call off the CAT dealer.

The 410 and 450 are two very different boats in both layout and ER. I say go on both and make a list of what you like on both. I would also throw in the 460 DA as well if your budget supports it. The 460 came in hard and soft top and with/with out hydraulic swim platform so there is a very wide range on pricing depending on those options.

Good luck!!! Feel free to start a private conversation if you like.

FrankW will be the most helpful to you as you navigate the purchase, his eagerness to help, knowledge, and sincere interest is unparalleled.

Take Care!!
 
We bought our '98 450 11 years ago. We have the CAT 3126's, in 2002 the blocks were replaced under CAT's warranty recall. I researched for over a year and moved from the 400 to 450. We still love our boat today as much as the day we bought it.
 
The 450's reliability will very much depend on the year it was manufactured and whether or not it has the newer/updated pod design. The older pod boats (2008-2010) had the original pods and there are design flaws that can lead to a very specific corrosion of the prop shafts (ask me how I know!). If you get one of the newer pod drive boats and it's been well-maintained you're probably fine. The Zeus drives are amazing when they're working.
 
Thanks guys for all the help, still trying to get mine moved so I can start getting serious. We've been on a 450 in Tampa and loved the layout. Was on a 500 in Port Clinton and didn't care for it as much. I'm not scared of a little maintence or do it your self project, I'm just more concerned with "stay away from" things. Budget wise we are looking around 75k-125k, years 95 and above, preferably closer 2000.

Can anyone give me an idea on what kind of seas the 410 or 450 are comfortable in. Erie can get kind of hairy and I hate to be denied a weekend at Put in Bay.

Matt
 
These boats can stand more seas than you can. 4-6ft seas aren't a problem for us, but honestly, what is tolerable is really dependent upon the speed you run and thevdirection of travel relative to the seas.

In your first post, you raised the question of the stories youn have heard about Cat engines……..and Caterpillar was the predominant power choice for the 400/410DA's and 450DA's. Some 3116 & 3126TA Caterpillars were affected by some bad valves delivered by a vendor. Cat repaired or replaced all affected engines and the valve failures all occurred at roughly 150 hours or less. If you are looking at engines with normal run times of about 75-100 hours per year, then the engines are wall past the point that the soft valves would have failed. You can, therefore, pretty much forget that concern.

The next Caterpillar "story" has to do with FAPS or soft blocks. This only occurred on 3126 engines. Caterpillar stopped warrantying the soft blocks in about 2004 so there is a change that that problem could still occur on a boat you are considering. Always have an engine survey done by Caterpillar on any Cat powered boat and if it has 3126TA's (385 hp or 420hp) request that the surveyor do a blow by test with is a measurement of the extent to which crankcase gasses are getting by the piston rings. THe blow by test is inexpensive and easily done by a surveyor in a few minutes.

The 350hp Cat 3126 engine is a revised design and is free from all of the above problems. (you will only see the 350hp 3126 in 410DA's from roughly 2002 up.

The 3208 is an older engine design but it is a bullet proof engine. THere were very few used after 1995 and the engine bed on the 400/410 is too narrow for the v-8 3208, so if you run across 3208's they will only be in the 450DA or larger boats.

You will find Caterpillar engines to be very easy to maintain, clean burning, smoke free and extremely efficient……but the 3208 can be a tad smokey since they are an earlier design and produced before the EPA stuck its nose in the marine business. From my experience, Cat engines are lower cost engines to operate and maintain than Cummins B or C series, but Cummins builds good engines.

Hope that helps…...
 
fwebster, that was a huge help thank you!!!

I've started to read the thread suggested and there is a lot of good info there, just lots of it. Got another good question that will probably get me shunned for asking haha, but coming from the go fast crowd and that style of boating I need the opinion. Has anyone ever thought about owning a Formula 41PC over a 410DA/EC. I know I'll lose and extra head and probably over all room but just curious if anyone had ever considered going that route before the DAs

Matt
 
Formula makes a great boat. There is one on our dock and I do love the painted hull. My issue is the engine room. It’s cortually impossible to do work in there. They also have less beam which makes them faster but in a cruiser I prefer the space to the speed.

Either way both are good boats.
 
fwebster, that was a huge help thank you!!!

I've started to read the thread suggested and there is a lot of good info there, just lots of it. Got another good question that will probably get me shunned for asking haha, but coming from the go fast crowd and that style of boating I need the opinion. Has anyone ever thought about owning a Formula 41PC over a 410DA/EC. I know I'll lose and extra head and probably over all room but just curious if anyone had ever considered going that route before the DAs

Matt

I did.
While shopping for my 410 I considered a Formula because they are such nice boats.
What I found was that in addition to less space and narrower beam, there are a lot less of them to choose from simply because they didn’t sell nearly as many of them as Sea Ray did. They’re interiors in the early 2000’s boats are very dated now, and you’ll likely pay more for one than a comparable year and size Sea Ray simply because they are rarer.
If I were looking at new boats, I think Formula might win out over Sea Ray. They are that nice, and they give you a ton of choices for interiors and exterior colors so you can really personalize the boat. Disclaimer though: I’m not a fan of the current Sea Ray styling. It just doesn’t work for how we use our boat.
But when shopping for one of the vintage and size you’re looking for you are probably better off looking at Sea Rays. Their interiors are nicer, you’ll get more room, and you’ll find a lot more to choose from.
Re: your question about 410’s in snotty water.
I try to avoid going in the ocean when I know it’s going to be nasty because it isn’t fun on any boat.
I took delivery of my boat last year and my first trip was a 6 1/2 hour run from eastern Connecticut, through a calm Long Island Sound, through Hell Gate, against the notoriously strong current heading south on the East River, through a choppy NY Harbor, then the weather turned really nasty as I turned East in the ocean in to 5-6 footers of short duration coming straight at the bow with very strong winds.
While it wasn’t fun, the boat handled it extremely well.
My crew consisted of my brother and my then 84 year old Uncle. We had the option of cutting 12 miles off the ocean portion of the trip by going in the first inlet we came upon, but we would have had to run 5 mph zones inside, adding more time on to the trip.
I left it up to my crew and they both agreed we should stay outside. That’s how well the boat did.
RE: The 2002 Cat 3126’s in my boat. It’s hard to add anything beyond what Frank did. He was a tremendous source of info and advice about the motors and boat when I was going through the buying process. Overall I love them. They are a great match for the 410. The one and only complaint I have about them is the engine zincs. There are eleven in each motor. All are very easy to get to. The problem is the 5 in each after cooler. While easy to get to, the pencil zincs like to stay in the hole when you thread the stainless cap out. Franks advice on this is solid though. Change the engine zincs more often, let the O rings on the aftercooler caps do their job and don’t gorilla tighten them down, and you’ll have a much easier time of it. I busted my knuckles the first time I did them last year, but it went smoothly in late summer/early fall. I’m about to tackle them again in the coming weeks and I’m keeping my fingers crossed, but optimistic.
 
Runs $1500 to $2000 depending on travel and it will give you at least that much maint. information to negotiate with or will confirm the excellent condition the engines are in. I set up the survey first, then the engines. That way if the survey uncovered anything I could call off the CAT dealer.
That seems high for the survey pricing. I paid $850 for the engine survey on my 400 DB with CAT 3116's including the blow by test.

My boat was originally on land so the surveyor checked out things on the hull etc then both he and the CAT guy were at the Sea Trial.
 
I am a very happy with our new to us 410 Sundancer w/3126's CAT's Great boat, and we have enjoyed the space, especially the beam on this boat.

I started out looking at a 340-380 Sundancer w/8.1 gas, but concluded that the cost of ownership would't be too much more for a diesel powered 410. With the extra beam and a second head, I think it was a good choice. Read several threads of guys upgrading soon after purchase for that extra room.

I paid $1600 for a CAT dealership mechanical survey in the Tampa Area. Expensive...yes. Worth it for my piece of mind, definitely. I was most concerned with the engines as I figured just about everything else can be fixed on these boats with the right amount of time and effort or money, depending on which you have more of.

As far as sea keeping, the 410 will knock 2'-3' down and feel like a glassy day in a smaller boat. The picture on my profile is running 20kts into a quartering head sea, and it was a wonderful ride, with just an occasional splash through the windsheild on a larger wave. Having boated a lot on Lake Erie in my misspent youth, I think you will find this is a great boat for what Lake Erie can dish out, with the caviat that there are certain days conditions that I wouldnt even venture out in a iron ore ship.

Did they ever re-open the winery on Middle Bass Island? Can't recall the name of that place..surprise surprise.
 
Did they ever re-open the winery on Middle Bass Island? Can't recall the name of that place..surprise surprise.

Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to stay with the 410 for storage reasons, dock fees and it's all we really need. The 450 will be harder to find dockage and more expensive at the bay not to mention could be harder to get in on busy weekends.

As for the winery, the stat dropped a few million into it over the last few years restoring it. There trying to find a vendor to go into it but they don't want it to be a bar from what I understand. There looking more for a restaurant or something of that nature.
 
Hi Matt!!

Took this journey last year. JVM posted the full 410 thread, I read it all twice while I was purchasing my boat. I have a 2000 410 and there were/are several maint. items I did and have to do on the engines. For the CATs find a local dealer and have them do a mechanical survey on the engines. Runs $1500 to $2000 depending on travel and it will give you at least that much maint. information to negotiate with or will confirm the excellent condition the engines are in. I set up the survey first, then the engines. That way if the survey uncovered anything I could call off the CAT dealer.

The 410 and 450 are two very different boats in both layout and ER. I say go on both and make a list of what you like on both. I would also throw in the 460 DA as well if your budget supports it. The 460 came in hard and soft top and with/with out hydraulic swim platform so there is a very wide range on pricing depending on those options.

Good luck!!! Feel free to start a private conversation if you like.

FrankW will be the most helpful to you as you navigate the purchase, his eagerness to help, knowledge, and sincere interest is unparalleled.

Take Care!!

I think the engine survey charges may be specific to the part of the country you are in. I had 2-Cummins Techs on board for the whole day with computers hooked up to both engines. They were able to pull the only alarm there had ever been, ran the boat through a series of tests, and checked it out in every way possible. I think I paid around $1600 as well in Pensacola Beach, FL. They also checked out every switch, button, and cable that had anything to do with the engines. When the day was done, I figured if they had not blown up, they must be good engines! Saunders Marine in Orange Beach, AL is a fine group of people.

Bennett
 
After a long season of boating coming to a end for us up here in Ohio, my Donzi is finally under a contract and just awaiting passing survey and mechanical inspection on the engines. Hopefully this winter will be spent shopping for 450DAs. We looked at one yesterday with Cummins 420hp and the broker says it cruises at 24mph and tops out at 32. That seemed impressive for such a big boat, am curious what the 3116s and 3126s cruise at.
 

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