End of Sea Ray as we know it

JamesT

Active Member
Oct 7, 2013
250
Somers Point, NJ
Boat Info
2011 470 Sundancer
Engines
Cummins 480s w/ Zeus PODs
I'm starting a new post due to a couple folks politicizing Sea Ray's difficulties in another post. Many people in that post were saying that Sea Ray's prices are too high and I wanted to take issue with that. First off IMO there is really no such thing as a price for anything being "too high." As they say in real estate, the right sales price is what someone is willing to pay within the seller's desired time frame. And in business you charge as much as your target market will bear. I don't think price alone is Sea Ray's problem. There are brands out there that charge much higher than Sea Ray. Brands like Tiara, Riviera, Viking, Sabre, and (the new) Carver brands. Foot for foot those boats are significantly higher priced new than Sea Rays, yet their production is significantly lower. And because of their limited production, their resale value drops a lot less per year than Sea Ray. I think Sea Ray's problem is they build too high a volume of quality boats that have a timeless look and charge a market competitive price. But because they built so many, the PO market cannibalized their new boat sales. I will also say that SR was too late to the game in their sport yacht design. The 51 & 54 Sundancers' living space pales in comparison to boats like the new Carver C52, the Prestige 500, & the Tiara 50 Coupe. Sea Ray also put queen beds on both staterooms as if two couples cruising together is somehow normal. Even if I wanted to pay the money, I wouldn't/couldn't own a 51DA, 54DA or a 58DA because my kids will not sleep together in the same bed. The other brands out there either provide a 3rd stateroom or scissor split the forward stateroom.

I will add that Marine Max also has much to do with the pricing of Sea Rays. When you buy a new Sea Ray, you don't pay just the cost of the build plus Sea Ray's desired profit margin, you also pay whatever Marine Max looks to make and from what I hear their desired gross profit margin is 40 percent.

I sincerely hope the new owners consider cutting back production to the levels of the brands I mentioned above, and begin making sensible design changes. I also hope they tighten their dealer network and possible part ways with Marine Max.
 
I have little knowledge of boat mark up but I do not think the dealers mark the boats up 40%. I know people that have bought boats over seas and they did not save 40% of list price. If there are and retired boat sales people perhaps they will tell us what the net markup is. Running a boat dealer ship has to expensive and there has to be a lot of overhead costs.
 
Someone is buying then..... There's a number of new'er ones that popped up at the marina in Chattanooga over the last few months and not just at the sales dock.

They are freaking beautiful.
 
I posted this in the other thread about this, here is a little prospective from a dealer like us.

I work for a dealer that has Sea Ray among several other brands. We have had a very good year with several larger Sea Ray's sold/on order (2 on order over 55' this month alone) so this all caught us a little off guard. Sea Ray has several new models and ones in the pipeline which isn't normally a sign of a company in bad financial trouble (R&D is hugely expensive).

I actually worked for two other manufactures who were put on the market and sold. Even with all of the rumors when they were bought by overseas buyers the companies rebounded stronger than ever thanks to a large cash infusion, more freedom to design what they wanted to be market leaders and new marketing that worked. Basically once the large corporate owners they had were gone and the complacency that being a publicly traded company breeds were gone they came back stronger than ever before.

My livelihood is with Sea Ray so of course I hope for the best and with my experience in the past I truly think this will be best for the brand as new stewardship is found.
 
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I posted this in the other thread about this, here is a little prospective from a dealer like us.

I work for a dealer that has Sea Ray among several other brands. We have had a very good year with several larger Sea Ray's sold/on order (2 on order over 55' this month alone) so this all caught us a little off guard.

I actually worked for two other manufactures who were put on the market and sold. Even with all of the rumors when they were bought by overseas buyers the companies rebounded stronger than ever thanks to a large cash infusion, more freedom to design what they wanted to be market leaders and new marketing that worked. Basically once the large corporate owners they had were gone and the complacency that being a publicly traded company breeds were gone they came back stronger than ever before.

My livelihood is with Sea Ray so of course I hope for the best and with my experience in the past I truly think this will be best for the brand as new stewardship is found.
Welcome to CSR!
 
Welcome to CSR!

Thanks! I have been a long time lurker, decided to join finally as folks rarely get any inside prospective when things like this happen. Also I am a soon to be 260 Sundancer owner as well, big boats are fun but big boat issues are getting old so we are looking to downsize!
 
Thanks Florida Time for jumping in with your perspective. Yes, you're probably right that Brunswick is the problem and not Sea Ray. I have little doubt that someone will be highly inclined to purchase the Sea Ray brand, I just don't think the buyers will want to purchase all their existing "plant and property" which will kill a lot of deals. Not my world, but just guessing.
 
Well as they say there is no beginning without an end. I am hopeful that Sea Ray is able to come through this better and with success. I hope some of the culture that built the company is able to resurface. My thoughts are with the employees around the changes and uncertainty they are dealing with right now.

I was skeptical around the L series when it launched and was certainly in the same camp as many here on the new design. But over the years and from being on board them at the boat shows, they are growing on me a bit. The fit, finish, and accommodations combined with the mechanical install quality and fore thought is excellent.

Of course I won't be able to live long enough to ride the depreciation curve to ever have one!! But they are certainly selling well. This summer on our week's cruise around the bay I saw 2 L650's, 1 L510, and 1 L540's. More then I ever expected.
 
I am not in the market for a new boat, but have to say at the last boat show I was not impressed with the build quality of the newer boats, specifically we were on a Sundancer 460 and the materials and craftsmanship did not seem as nice as our 2007 44DA. I don't see pricing as being an issue, as mentioned plenty of other brands with lower volumes and much higher pricing that seem to be doing okay.

For me it seems the issue for boats in the 30-50 foot range is people don't have or don't want to put in the time, nor do they want to cruise so an outboard powered Dual or Center console is way more practical for them. These boats are NOT cheap, but other than a few newer models Sea Ray isn't in that business. With today's outboards I would never buy an IO or gas powered inboard.
 
Yes, outboards seem to be the future. From my limited perspective it seems most advanced engine development, as opposed to drive development, is with outboards.
 
I am not in the market for a new boat, but have to say at the last boat show I was not impressed with the build quality of the newer boats, specifically we were on a Sundancer 460 and the materials and craftsmanship did not seem as nice as our 2007 44DA. I don't see pricing as being an issue, as mentioned plenty of other brands with lower volumes and much higher pricing that seem to be doing okay.

For me it seems the issue for boats in the 30-50 foot range is people don't have or don't want to put in the time, nor do they want to cruise so an outboard powered Dual or Center console is way more practical for them. These boats are NOT cheap, but other than a few newer models Sea Ray isn't in that business. With today's outboards I would never buy an IO or gas powered inboard.
Honestly, there was nothing at the NY Boat Show for less than a million dollars that I liked more than my 2002 410.
 
Yes, outboards seem to be the future. From my limited perspective it seems most advanced engine development, as opposed to drive development, is with outboards.

It goes both way. I’m in a Costal market where we can convince someone they want the bubonic plague easier than to buy a stern drive. Go inland and it’s the opposite, can’t give away an outboard powered boat. At the Atlanta show we couldn’t even get people to get onboard a outboard boat. There is no doubt that outboards are out selling stern drives but there is still a large market in middle America for stern drive.
 
In the charter fishing business I was told that outboards are preferred because engine repair is almost instant. All they do is swap out motors. If it was a stern drive it could be days to fix. With the 350 HP outboards they got more power than our 454s have.
 
Not so fast..............

Sea Ray established MSRP's on their product lines several years ago for some oscure legal reason. Boats are like automobiles in the sense that a new boat sale is a negotiated transaction. No dealer asks MSRP and no buyer (with any sense) pays MSRP for a new boat. The true mark-up is more like 15-20%, if there are no incentives in the deal.

Sea Ray does offer incentives from time to time, but they are usually national programs on slow moving models. The lead time or waiting list for a new L-class boat is about 18 months now, so that isn't where you will find incentives.

The negotiated price is also dependent upon local conditions since the dealer controls the mark-up, not Sea Ray. And, in the final analysis, how much discount from MSRP you get is a product of your negotiating skill and how bad the dealer needs to sell the boat you are interested in.
 
I am in current negotiations for a new 2018 400 Fly. MSRP 1.05m. Current negotiations are at 730k and I think I can get it down to 720k which equates to just over 30% discount. These are real numbers after incentives etc.
my concern is the drop in price after purchase. I am new to SR and all my other boats have held value well (Boston Whaler, Grady White, Pursuit). That being said this SR seems to be a perfect fit for what I am looking for right now and the quality is above all the Europian similar boats (Prestige, Bavaria etc). I figure to have the boat for 7-10 yrs so maybe it just doesn't matter.
 
More than one company has priced itself out of a market, so strictly speaking there IS such a thing as too high a price. The trick is in the ability to read the market and your target demographics.

While this may appear to us as Boatageddon, It helps to recognize that the boat market is historically volatile and brands are passed around like trading cards. So has it always been.
 
I think part of the challenge in discussing Sea Ray is the wide breadth of product offerings that they have in the market.

They go from the bow rider 20 something runabout that people buy to wakeboard or ski behind to the large high end yachts for owner operation.

Is there another company (brand) that scales from 20 to 65 feet?

Maybe there is and I am just not thinking of it.

From some of the postings on here I have gathered that their large boats are sold 18-24 months out. Doesn't sound like there is a pricing, style, or design issue there.

From some of the postings here it seems like the 20-26ft market for open day boats has fractured into multiple brands. Sea Ray's focus on stern drive may be impacting sales in that segment. People I have talked to who have bought a boat in that range lately are getting the inboards or jets.

Back to the original challenge about discussing Sea Ray in the market - they are in multiple markets - in my mind you have to evaluate them individually.

I have grown to love the L class. Initially it was change - something different.

On a side note, I drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited for 20 years. Probably 7-8 different vehicles, but always the same model. Design slowly evolved over the years - then "Boom" major change. Didn't like it at first - now I do.

Side note - I moved out the Grand Cherokee not because of design change - but because I had always wanted a Jeep Wrangler... Still a Jeep customer.

I think it makes sense for Sea Ray to be broken up into at least 2 parts. The open bow wakeboard/ski boat and the yacht offerings.

My interest is in the Yacht portion - I think having a scalable product line from 30 to 80-90 feet makes sense and would continue to perform very well.

What if another builder of sport yachts were to combine with their product lines. Wait - just a thought. What if Marquis bought the yacht portion of Sea Ray, wouldn't that be interesting.

Marquis has nothing below 50 feet. True they own the Carver group, same as there have been Sea Ray and Meridians. But a Marquis or a Sea Ray is different than a Carver.

What if they pulled in the 30 to 50 feet products from Sea Ray. Reconciled the best of both worlds from 50-60 feet. Marquis is already up in the 70's in length.

Wow that progression for the lifetime of a boater. American owned, American made.

Oh well just some random thoughts and ramblings...

If I was in the market for a new 40-50 ft Sea Ray would I be worried about long term value - no I would not.

I doubt the Sea Ray brand in large boats goes away - why would it.

Mark
 
I think Brinswick is solid old school. I do not think a break up of the brand would be done with current board in play.
A sale yes, that is clearly evident how they have pulled back. Brunswick runs a tough game and are squeezing vendors at the throat even in their profitable business sectors. GE has done it for years and now Medical is on the block. Their ( GE's ) booth at RSNA this year was a far cry of a medical technology leader.

While I will not make the Miami Show but, have asked for a comparison between Mercury Marine's space "up dates" and Sea Ray's positions compared to last year.
 

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