I've had it with Cummins

WARNING: There is a lot of bitching and moaning in this post. If you don't like bitching an moaning. Do not read this.

So my 13 year old QSM-11s crapped out. Bad turbo on the port engine. Ok, no big deal, things don't last forever.

Turns out the turbo failure was related to a crack in the exhaust manifold where the turbo bolts on. And wait, there are several cracks all over the manifold. So we need a new manifold. Better yet, we need two new manifolds; one for each engine. Two new turbos too. Lo and behold, this is a "known issue" with QSM-11s. A dry exhaust manifold in a marine environment? Who would have suspected that THAT wouldn't work?

She also needs new exhaust blankets on both engines. Who knew how much those things cost? All I can say is holy poop. Also, one after cooler heat exchanger is bad. Throw it on the pile!

So none of this really surprises me... Again, a thirteen year old boat, what do you expect? Things are going to wear out/break; that I understand and that I am fine with. I had budgeted for some major expenditures at some point. It is not the money.

Here's where I get pissed. And I mean really pissed.

CUMMINS DOES NOT STOCK THE PARTS NEEDED TO FIX THIS KNOWN PROBLEM.

I gather if they stocked the parts that that would somehow be an admission that this piss poor design is a problem. I have been waiting for three weeks for parts and there is no end in sight. I think they stock the bolts for the exhaust manifolds and that's about it. I can not get a straight answer on where these parts are and/or when I might ever see them. So my boat sits disassembled in a boat yard doing me absolutely no good during the height of the summer, and I have NO IDEA when I will get it back. So we are canceling our weekends one by one. We had some cool stuff planned too. Every Wednesday I check in with the yard to see if I need to cancel the coming weekend, and every week it's the same answer. I do not blame this on the yard; it's not their fault. They are doing the best they can to try to get answers from the recalcitrant bozos at Cummins.

So please people, stop saying "I don't want MANs because they don't have parts available" or any such nonsense. I had a friend with a mucked up MAN engine that was pulled from the boat, shipped to the factory, rebuilt and reinstalled in less time and for less money then this is going to cost me. But again, it's not the money. It's the TIME.

Hey Cummins: If you have a known piss poor design out in the field in thousands of applications, you should at least have the decency to stock the parts to fix it. I'm just a spoiled white boy pissing and moaning because I'm losing my leisure time on my yacht... but these engines are found in many commercial applications too. Just imagine how pissed I would be if I were losing business revenue on top of losing time.

I'm not looking for answers or advice. Just bitching.

Thanks for listening.

That's what we're here for.


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Thx! Sorry to hear of your issues! Hope it's fixed soon. Note to self stick with gassers


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Could you switch to a different manifold? Maybe a wet style?

Everything you need is setting on a shelf somewhere....

Is it possible that the boat is not propped correctly which lead to high temps (EGT) which lead to overheating the exhaust manifold which caused cracking and the other issue you have encountered? Have you asked on boat diesel if this is an on going issue and what the 'real' solution is if any?

EDIT: Found a post on BD that may interest you.

http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm?CFAPP=3&Forum_ID=588&Thread_ID=45537

Since misery loves company, let me just say that I've been there - done that… Just after purchasing my boat I had a shaft seal melt which required the boat to be hauled (mid July). Like you, I just wanted to get back to enjoying the water. Turns out there were some underlying issues that caused the seal to melt which complicated things, which required even more parts - fine, whatever it takes…
Long story short. Parts availability in Canada for boats SUCKS! I anticipated that, so I was already lining up parts from the USA. Ordered my own parts after my mechanic stated Canada had many of the parts on backorder with no idea wham they would be available, though I think even Merc USA had to manufacture some of them before they could deliver. The main parts I needed where exhaust manifolds and like your boat these manifolds were a known problematic issue. Didn't get the parts until the beginning of the last week of August. Unbelievable, but should still be in the water for Labour Day (last long weekend of our short summer).

Nope - the mechanic's shop, a business solely devoted to repairing vehicles that are only used in summertime closes down for HOLIDAYS the last week of August!!! Are you kidding?!?! So my boat, like yours sat in pieces and didn't get back to the water until the middle of September. That was for a gasser that I never thought parts would be that difficult to obtain. All the time, I'm watching my old boat that I traded for the newer one, running up and down the river having the time of their lives. Nice...

Sorry to hear that you are experiencing similar issues - hope to hear that you're back in the water soon.

BTDT..... Still am. I'm a nanosecond from getting out of boating. Why bother if the mech's don't care about customers. Frustration doesn't even scratch the surface.

That absolutely sucks.

You know what they say about the squeaky wheel?

Mark A. Smith
Vice President - Investor Relations
Cummins Inc.
Phone: 812-377-3121
E-mail: investor_relations@cummins.com

I have a couple of friends worth the qsm power plants. Two of which have just fixed this problem. They may jump in but I'm Pretty sure the design flow was in the gasket and there is a "fix" and I'm pretty sure If I remember correctly the fix was a different gasket. I'm not sure if they had to replace anything other then the gasket but he was done in one week. I guees that was a pointless post because as I'm typing I'm noticing that they didn't need parts and that's what your waiting for. Sorry. Don't worry if it makes ya feel any better I had my boat hauled Friday morning and I think my aragon is over. Don't think I'll be fixed up anytime soon

Not sure where you are located, but it is the same here on the Hudson. There is no "presence" by any diesel manufacturer. Cummins Metro Power in the Bronx was great and close, but they closed the marine division. Cummins Power Systems in Wall NJ is now covering everything from NJ shore to CT. and I can tell you they are busy with the bread and butter COMMERCIAL WORK, and will do recreational boats when you scream loud enough. They are good but swamped. It's not just Sea Ray, all boat manufactures are putting these HO electronic diesels in the boats and the local dealers can't service them. These dealers are used to Merc gas IO, or Volvo IO.. Sure they can do oil changes and general maintenance but once an internal issue come up you have to call in a factory service center.

Another issue is if the local dealer sends their mechanics to the Cummins school, they are required to buy a service truck (or 2) and MUST take service calls. How does a small dealer loose service tech for hours on the road to complete a 1 hour job.. They can't. Also OSHA has laws governing workers, and on certain jobs demand 2 men for weight lifting limits. So that is now 2 service trucks sitting in the same location doing 1 job. and you wonder why the bill is thousands. double travel, double labor.

Engine manufacturers! You want as simple solution to re store your name. Let the Commercial work stay with the big service centers and back up the dealers and let the dealers mechanics get qualified and be the primary service their customers in house! Most of these dealers have there own marinas and a good portion of their sales/service customers are wet slipped right there!

Rich

trit21 said:

Is it possible that the boat is not propped correctly which lead to high temps (EGT) which lead to overheating the exhaust manifold which caused cracking and the other issue you have encountered? Have you asked on boat diesel if this is an on going issue and what the 'real' solution is if any?

Click to expand...

Bingo.

I can sense how you feel in what you wrote......

Regarding propping:

Thanks for the unsolicited feedback, boys. The boat has the props on it that came from Sea Ray. That's not to say that they are ideal, but it's not like I ran out and added a few inches of pitch just for the heck of it.

But you're missing my point. The boat could have been over-propped like a French whore, which it wasn't, or I could have exacerbated this KNOWN problem by being so irresponsible as to trust the engineers at Sea Ray to pick the right props for the boat; but that does not change the fact that Cummins does not stock the appropriate parts for this known issue on this widely used engine.

That is my beef. But thanks for your suggestions.

Regarding boatdiesel:

Yes, I've read the threads on this topic. This is how I came to the conclusion that this is a known problem. I am supposedly getting the improved gasket and the "improved metallurgy" (per Cummins) on the new manifolds.

Just as a side note, at what point did cummins change the design so that it's not such a 'known issue'? Those are common motors.

CougarCruiser said:

Just as a side note, at what point did cummins change the design so that it's not such a 'known issue'? Those are common motors.

Click to expand...

Damn good question! Mine are pretty old (2002) so I assume they corrected this somewhere along the line.

Converse48 - In 2014 Tom Linebarger (Cummins CEO) announced that all of the formerly independent Cummins dealers in North America were now going to be acquired and integrated into the Cummins OEM manufacturer business. One rationale for that was that there was a lot of inefficiency in the dealer business model as it was structured with these many smaller dealers all holding their own parts inventory and skilled technicians but operating independently of each other.

I have no idea if that integration has compounded the problem of parts and technician availability, or if they have completed this "integration" in the marine sector yet. (full disclosure I work for a competitor to Cummins).

Bear in mind that before this the business mode, was very deliberately - I am good at OEM manufacturing and the dealers are good at parts inventory and full life cycle service - so let's keep those two things seperate. That all changed with the announcement to acquire and integrate.

While I am in no way trying to explain away or justify your experience - I am curious, I know there are other CSR members that are involved with Cummins as their livelihood - I wonder if the acquisition and integration of their dealers in the last 12 months is affecting the service and availability levels for parts and technicians.

Why would they want to help you with anything? They probably have a twisted love of putting boaters through the ringer waiting on parts. It's in their business plan so as to encourage you to repower.

FWIW I'm sorry your yachts out of commission. At least you have another boat to use in the meantime. Wax up those ski's and go pull some muscles.

Both of my exhaust mainifold gaskets where shot (discovered at survey) owner paid for repairs.
Cummins stated the owner over propped the boat and ran it hard adding to the leaks.
They sent the manifolds out ,machined them and the "new" gaskets where all done in a week.
im not sure why your having such a hard time but my parts where "on a shelf" waiting for me. Best of luck.


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Havana Shamrock said:

Both of my exhaust mainifold gaskets where shot (discovered at survey) owner paid for repairs.
Cummins stated the owner over propped the boat and ran it hard adding to the leaks.
They sent the manifolds out ,machined them and the "new" gaskets where all done in a week.
im not sure why your having such a hard time but my parts where "on a shelf" waiting for me. Best of luck.


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Click to expand...

It's the manifolds themselves that I am mostly waiting on.
Mine can't be machined because they are cracked.
I need new ones.