AB Tender - Quality and Warranty Issue

Alex,
Is it possible that the outer surfaces are electropolished and the mating surfaces aren't? I'm not sure of how the process works but I believe Joe has talked to Dale about doing this on our new dingy davits he is creating for us. I believe it is supposed to remove some of the rusting ores from the metal to deter this from happening. On the other hand, I really don't know much about the process and may be talking out of my a$$. I'd ask Dale his opinion.....

Thanks Todd. Dale is my go-to guy as he helps me with number of projects, so I'm discussing this one with him as well.

The basic idea of this thread is to have it broken down in two phases:

1. Raise the flag to make sure that boating community is aware of the problem. If AB is now providing horrible customer service and their warranty worth nothing, then I wouldn't want my fellow boaters waste their money. Get some ideas on how to "make" AB reconsider their action and step in to the plate and take care of the problem.

2. If all of my efforts making AB address the issue leads to nowhere, then I'm switching to the mode of fixing this myself. This of course means that first I'll have to find replacement hardware of highest grade (at this time I have no idea where to get it), clean/polish/wax and rebedding is in order, followed by Mike's suggestion to pee on the boat to make sure it doesn't rust in the future.
 
Alex,
I can't help but, thank you for shedding some light on the AB product.
I have always considered them to be the TOP of the line but, now not so sure......
 
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I just saw this and found it interesting.

[h=2]20 Boating Myths Busted[/h]Myth: Stainless steel is the most corrosion-resistant metal.
Ever wonder how come most boatbuilders use either bronze or plastic through-hull fittings below the waterline and not stainless? The main reason why stainless steel isn’t used more frequently below the waterline is that stainless steel needs contact with oxygen to resist corrosion. The damp microspace where the fitting passes through the hull is an oxygen-depleted environment, and in that environment, stainless rusts readily by a process known as crevice corrosion. We’ve all seen stainless tow rings and bow eyes above the waterline rusting from the inside out. Remember this: It’s called stainless, not stain-free.
 
Alex,
I can't help but, thank you for shedding some light on the AB product.
I have always considered them to be the TOP of the line but, now not so sure......

Me too.
From what I see it sounds like inferior fittings and AB should be backing that up. :huh:

Here is an interesting article on "rust" and stainless steel: http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
There is a section in there talking about "free iron" from dirty manufacturing which would explain problems with cost cutting stainless fittings.
I have run into this rusting problem using so called stainless fasteners from your "box" hardware/home stores too.
 
Guys,

I'm well aware of the fact that SS is not "rust free". Those who keep bringing this up missing the main point I'm making. I'll try to clarify it. I'm talking about very expensive (premium line model), less than a year old boat here. The level of rust developed in very short time frame is what I would expect tot see on a 10 y/o boat, not 6 months old boat (the time when rust was present). The fact that people who own older AB dinghies, including those who own other brands, have no rust issues prove my point.

I expect to see discoloration or even minor rusty stains over the years, which would clearly qualify as a maintenance item. But, what I see happening with these SS parts is very different.

I've decided to give it another shot and contacted the dealer I've purchased the dinghy from. He has accepted the fact that something abnormal is going on and said that he would like to get other knowledgeable parties (including marine surveyors) involved. He said that this is something he hasn't seen before and is willing to help me.

Finding the cause would be huge, if not the most important part of the resolution. However, who's going to pay for the fix is another story. The dealer said that AB might still refuse to take responsibility. Oh well, time will tell and I'll keep you guys posted.
 
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...Possible solutions include removing the parts, cleaning them, applying wax/polish and reinstalling with a good bedding of caulk....

Henry,

I discussed this with the dealer and he made a good point, even though the proper bedding may apply for some parts, but there are number of those that don't even come in contact with fiberglass (for example steering wheel). So, even though your suggestion is a good one, it doesn't address the issue completely. So, IMO, we're back to the low grade SS parts (not 316 grade) being the primary contributor to the issue.
 
Good god, this is turning into a whine fest......clean it, wax it, and be done with it.
 
Good god, this is turning into a whine fest......clean it, wax it, and be done with it.

Wow, that's a very constructive reply. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.


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Todd
 
So, IMO, we're back to the low grade SS parts (not 316 grade) being the primary contributor to the issue.

That's a pretty bold quote for not having had a scientific test performed on the material.

Slander

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http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/slander

Libel

Definition

Libel is a method of defamation expressed by print, writing, pictures, signs, effigies, or any communication embodied in physical form that is injurious to a person's reputation, exposes a person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injures a person in his/her business or profession.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/libel
 
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Sounds pretty straightforward to me. There's a quality issue with the hardware on his dink. The open questions are is the issue due to low quality materials, poor installation, or both, as well as the larger issue of is this a one-off issue or not.

It's entirely possible that his problem is unique, and due to an assembler having a lousy day and doing a half-assed job with prep and/or installation. Improper surface prep, insufficient sealing/bedding, whatever. It's also possible that AB used a run of hardware that wasn't up to standards (I doubt they are big enough to do serious intake QA on all of their components), or maybe they did choose to use to lower quality parts than they have in the past. Right now, it's impossible to tell which is true.

There is no question (or there shouldn't be) in anyone's mind that what he is experiencing is not normal and not right. Unless you own stock in the maker, I can't really see any case for dismissing the problem out of hand, or going all uber-lawyer on him for expressing his displeasure and opinion about what appears to be a poor quality product that isn't being handled well by the builder. He paid good money for what's supposed to be a good product, and now he's having to deal with a problem that he shouldn't have.

Maybe cabin fever has finally set in, and it's down to arguing for the fun of it.
 
The rusted steering wheel is the smoking gun in the inferior materials department.

There may be an installation issue as well, but clearly the stainless steel on the steering wheel shouldn't be rusting.
 
I believe this thread was started for 2 purposes.

To inform fellow forum members of a possible product defect and spare them spending their hard earned cash on said product.

To find out if others have had similar issues & to pressure AB in a public forum to do the right thing.

Remember this boat had issues at 6 months new! How many of you would sit idly by after spending $20-30k on a new Sea Ray only to see these issues develop? There would be calls all over this forum for restitution & poor Matt at searaycorporate would be ripped left and right for no other reason than being a Sea Ray Executive.
So why is it so hard to imagine Alex's disappointment & frustration? I am a perfectionist and would damn pissed if I saw this develop in such a short amount of time.
Once again, as I see some comments (whether meant to be helpful or not) I am reminded to seriously weigh the benefits of posting future problems on this forum. I speak to many members personally outside of this site who share my feeling. One can easily see some of the former frequent posters who almost never comment on here anymore.


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Todd
 
I've done some research and here's my conclusion. The dink sits far back on the boat and is subject to lots of sea spray. Couple that with excessive fuel burn of the cummins engines, deposits layers of corrosive material on the SS. Add in acidic waters of Barnegate bay and you have a metal eating cocktail. Being that Alex cruises around a lot and doesn't live near his boat, washing is not a priority. Since this is also a new boat, maybe the hardware hasn't been torqued down after extreme temp swings, leaving gaps where salt water can collect.

Turtles remedy. Wash dink once a week. remove all hardware, wash again, re-bed with silicone, oil all nuts and bolts when re-bedding. Wax all fiberglass and hardware every 3 months. Cover dink with breathable cover while underway. After each use, hose down. Switch engines to more efficient CAT engines. Stop boating in NJ. wash, with soap once a week during heavy use, once every 2 weeks during light use. If unsure of rating of SS hardware, use TEF Gel on all nuts and bolts.
 
Well... I too think the steering wheel is a smoking gun and I'll ask the blunt question. Have you ever used products like On/Off on the thing (high acid content to get rid of brown stains)? I'll admit I use that stuff on my waterline and swim platform and I've had to replace a lot of stainless (316) hardware before I became wise (i.e. paid a lot of "stupid tax") and learned that some of these cleaners will corrode stainless and it'll look just like that. I got some of that stuff on the rail of my bow and it looked like cancer a few days later... fittings on the swim platform? So bad I had to replace the tie down holders. I used to keep my boat on the Chickahominy River and fighting pig sh!t in the water was a never-ending battle... Acid is like crack cocaine... quick high but the crash after repeated use is really bad. I'm guessing you have used cleaners to keep that dirty brown water off your lovely dinghy and now you are paying the price.

And Mike can kiss my butt about acid coming out of the Cummins... Nothing but sweet love juice out of mine.
 
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Great feedback guys.

Autovette and Rick, you guys are awesome! This thread would have been useless and dead after one page if it weren’t for you. Keep it up.

Regarding few ideas that have been mentioned by Pete and Gary.

Let me start with few things that came out of my conversation with the dealer I got the boat from.

We tried thinking outside the box and discussed few other possible reasons as contributors to the issue:
1. The dinghy being covered – my response: I can't see how the cover can cause the issue as the tow-hook at the bow is always exposed and not covered, but it has the same rusting issue.

2. Diesel exhaust fumes – my response: It's an interesting idea, but my SeaLift made from Stainless Steal and it doesn't have this issue. The lift is pretty much as old as the big boat (the boat is 2005) and only rusty stains I see from SS bolts, which most likely are lower grade SS.

3. Possibility of poor bonding/bedding allowing moisture build up behind the SS parts. But the dealer made a good point that some components can't be bedded (for example steering wheel), so perhaps this might not be part of the cause here. If it’s still a contributor, then it’ll address the issue only for some parts like cleats and tow hooks.

4. Possibility of some cleaning products stored in the dink. Dealer told me a story how one time an owner had very weird rusting issue, which was eating up the SS parts, I mean physically making the parts become week to the point of breaking. As a result, it was a chemical fumes reaction from some cleaning product stored inside the dink.
This is not the answer to my puzzle, as I don’t store any cleaning products in the dink. The only item that I could think of 1 gallon spare gas can. All other items have no way to generate any fume (I’m referring to PFDs, CG items, etc.)

5. Defective batch of parts - this is also a puzzling thing b/c dealer pointed out that parts like steering wheel, tow hooks, d-ring, cleats came from different vendor. But, it's yet to be confirmed and obviously all could have been switched to lower grade SS for saving money.

Gary, excellent point on chemicals like On/Off or similar. But, it still not my case here. The only two chemicals I’ve used on the boat was regular boat soap from WM and during mid or even 2/3rds in to the season I’ve used product called “Z-Cleaner” to clean the tubes. But, this was way after the rust made its way on the SS parts.

I think I’ve used On/Off only one time many years ago when I still had my 240DA. I still remember that this chemical was so strong that I’ve used like ¼ of the bottle and never touched it again for any application.

Keep the ideas coming, guys.
 
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