ZF transmission failure of Coupling-48 dancer

B

Benestee

New Member
Feb 17, 2010
44
Sag Harbor
Boat Info
Sundancer 48 2008
Engines
Cummins
Last weekend I was checking my engines and noticed a significant amount of rubber fragments above my port transmission and below my port engine. It looked like a hose but I found no issues and the engine ran fine.
I had Cummins take a look and they said that it was the torsional couplings that were failing and getting chewed up.
According to Cummins, ZF has had some problems with this.
Of course, i was just about to leave for Nantucket on Friday.
Has anyone had any issues with the couplings?
and know why this is happening?
Thanks,
Mike
 
An '08 boat- aren't you still under warranty?

As to why, I have no specific knowledge of the couplings you have (heck, I don't even have torsional couplings), but it sure sounds like it would take a major misalignment issue to "chew" them up. Another possibility could be the material the couplings are manufactured from, perhaps not holding up to the loads. If the Cummins rep is aware of an "issue", didn't he elaborate?

Any vibration from the port side?
 
I think he is talking about the engine to transmission coupler. In the Cummins/ZF it is a vulcanized assembly where the flywheel is vulcanized to the coupler.

I suspect there is an engineering issue here with whoever specified and supplied the coupler or a quality problem with the coupler maker. If this is what it is, its a pretty rare problem.
 
The boat is still under warranty. I spoke with ZF transmission repair on Long Island and this has been a problem with the cummins QSC and ZF. The coupler are failing from possible torsional vibration and most likely a poor coupler.
The cummins guy said he has also seen this with the QSC.
I hope the other engine doesn't have a problem also.
I did notice prior to this issue that the gear temp was always 20 degrees warmer on this engine was always 10 rpm faster when cruising in sync. Not sure if this was some kind of warning.
 
Benestee said:
Last weekend I was checking my engines and noticed a significant amount of rubber fragments above my port transmission and below my port engine. It looked like a hose but I found no issues and the engine ran fine.
I had Cummins take a look and they said that it was the torsional couplings that were failing and getting chewed up.
According to Cummins, ZF has had some problems with this.
Of course, i was just about to leave for Nantucket on Friday.
Has anyone had any issues with the couplings?
and know why this is happening?
Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention a coupling. Read this thread. Let me know your thoughts. I'm now into week 3 and pretty pissed.

http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33567
 
after ZF2851V transmission fluid change and filter replacement

less that 1 miles smoke, ( smelt of burnt rubber) and then loss of engagement

checked fluid- all disappeared.

added 2 quarts SAE30w

will not engage forward or reverse

ZF2851V to cummins QSCS540s

at fliud change no way to fill filter with oil as its mounted verticle

what could be wrong?

TRANSMISSION GEAR RATIO 1.815
TRANSMISSION SIZE, MODEL ZF2851V
 
same problem here @ 400 hours 2006 48 srda
real time hearing will be covered under warrantee
 
how long does the job take to replace the torsional coupler? who did yours? please do share need the job done asap
 
This is a big job. The transmission has to be removed from the engine or uncoupled and moved away from it far enough for the mechanic to get his hands in the space to unbolt the coupler. THis is even more complicated if your servicing dealer doesn't have a lifting device that will straddle the engine in the bilge. Our dealer does and he can do this job in about 2 days.
 
DGAM said:
That thread is 20 pages long - what was the problem - was it a torsional coupler?
Click to expand...
In my case it turned out not to be a problem with the torsion coupler at all. I spent a lot of money just to find out it was torsional noise. Boats been running fine since then.
 
Benestee said:
The boat is still under warranty. I spoke with ZF transmission repair on Long Island and this has been a problem with the cummins QSC and ZF. The coupler are failing from possible torsional vibration and most likely a poor coupler.
The cummins guy said he has also seen this with the QSC.
I hope the other engine doesn't have a problem also.
I did notice prior to this issue that the gear temp was always 20 degrees warmer on this engine was always 10 rpm faster when cruising in sync. Not sure if this was some kind of warning.
Click to expand...

I noticed I have black rubber particles and dust coming out of my starboard transmission bellhousing. If this is a known problem with the QSC and ZF combo should this repair be covered by ZF? I purchased the boat in late August, to date I have not had any transmission issues.
What is the rough cost and process to get this repaired?

Thanks!
 
The black rubber dust/particles is a symptom of the vulcanized rubber part of the coupling disintegrating, however, there is a rubber component in the coupler and some black dust is normal. I don't know how common the coupling issue is, but the frequency of occurrence seems to be high. Since your boat is 6 years old and you are not the original purchaser, the chances of either Cummins or ZF covering this repair are slim to none. In fact, neither company is known to be particularly generous when it comes to warranty issues.

Pulling the transmission is a big job in a 48DA and the parts are big and heavy (see post #11).......expect 2-3 days for 1 1/2 men plus parts. At $125/hour that repair going to be roughly $3200 to $4500.
 
fwebster said:
The black rubber dust/particles is a symptom of the vulcanized rubber part of the coupling disintegrating, however, there is a rubber component in the coupler and some black dust is normal. I don't know how common the coupling issue is, but the frequency of occurrence seems to be high. Since your boat is 6 years old and you are not the original purchaser, the chances of either Cummins or ZF covering this repair are slim to none. In fact, neither company is known to be particularly generous when it comes to warranty issues.

Pulling the transmission is a big job in a 48DA and the parts are big and heavy (see post #11).......expect 2-3 days for 1 1/2 men plus parts. At $125/hour that repair going to be roughly $3200 to $4500.
Click to expand...

Frank,
I was hoping you would respond.
The particles are like small pellets mostly with a little dust. I will call my local Cummins dealer tomorrow, I called my SR dealer today which said to call Cummins. Is there anything that could of been done to cause this or is it just one of those rare occasions? Thanks for your input Frank.

Jon
 
If you do decide to replace do both. The replacement couplers are improved. Quite a fraction of the cost is the prep and rigging so to do the other should be cost effective.
 
CAMELLA said:
Frank,
I was hoping you would respond.
The particles are like small pellets mostly with a little dust. I will call my local Cummins dealer tomorrow, I called my SR dealer today which said to call Cummins. Is there anything that could of been done to cause this or is it just one of those rare occasions? Thanks for your input Frank.

Jon
Click to expand...

If you do have a failed coupler, unless your idle rpms are very low or you regularly shift into and out of gear at over 1000 rpm, nothing you did contributed to this..............take it one step at a time and ask questions: Is this the first boat you have seen with this problem? How many others ?(I know of 5 48DA's with QSC/ZF's with failed couplers, but my universe is limited to one fairly large dealer and CSR and a couple of other forums) Has Cummins or ZF issued any TSB's or service advisories concerning the vulcanized coupler failure? Does Cummins think this type of failure is acceptable on a low time pleasure boat? Will Cummins assist with the repairs? Who can I contact at your company and at Cummins re: assistance with repairs? Has Cummins issued a double secret recall (like the Delta's probation in Animal House)?
 
fwebster said:
If you do have a failed coupler, unless your idle rpms are very low or you regularly shift into and out of gear at over 1000 rpm, nothing you did contributed to this..............take it one step at a time and ask questions: Is this the first boat you have seen with this problem? How many others ?(I know of 5 48DA's with QSC/ZF's with failed couplers, but my universe is limited to one fairly large dealer and CSR and a couple of other forums) Has Cummins or ZF issued any TSB's or service advisories concerning the vulcanized coupler failure? Does Cummins think this type of failure is acceptable on a low time pleasure boat? Will Cummins assist with the repairs? Who can I contact at your company and at Cummins re: assistance with repairs? Has Cummins issued a double secret recall (like the Delta's probation in Animal House)?
Click to expand...

Great advice Frank and much appreciated.
 
I spoke to the local Cummins dealer about my issue. They took all my information and now I am waiting to hear back from the Sea Ray Accounts Manager at Cummins. I attached a pic, the quality is not good but you can see all the rubber particles. ZF-Cummins Coupler.jpg
 
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