at 3196 problems

yachtsaboats

New Member
Aug 22, 2010
13
NJ
Boat Info
2002 48 Sedan Bridge, 660 hp Cats
Engines
3196
2002 1100 hr 48 DB
Crusing @ 1900rpm lost rpm went to engine room to examine, oil was everywere. limped in on 1 engine spent 2 days cleaning mess and diagnosed oil blowing out of dipstick even at idle also oil pressure was low 18lbs cold and i believe i hear a knock in #6 cyl, removed cyl head top of pistons look ok, some minor scoring on cylinder walls.
Investigating this I discovered this engine has recieved 25K in warranty repairs, last being 150 hours ago.
Cat refuses to consider a possible damaged engine from previous warranty issues. Engine is still in boat, i intend to remove it and tear down to discover all damage (speculating broken / damaged rings from previous seawater intrusion from warranty issues and damaged #6 rod bearing damage also resulting from seawater intrusion). I'm SICK over this. Any opinion greaty appreciated.
Ken
"Re & Me"
Atlantic City NJ :huh:
 
Couple questions for you: Are you telling us this thing was running great and then baam, all this trouble; low oil pressure, knocking and throwing oil? … When the oil was getting thrown out the dip stick guide, was the oil over full with fuel? ... Also when the oil was throwing out “even at idle” was it puffing out like one cylinder with big blowby or was it a steady push? … Have you cut the oil filter open for inspection?
 
Yes no warning, rapid failure, I suspect the knock resulting from water ingestion from prior warranty issues with the aftercoolers - hydrolocking the cylinder causing bearing damage. the bearing let loose reslting in broken rings causing the blow-by (it does pump out like only 1 cylinder) or the rings were damaged from seawater ingestion breaking at this time pumping the oil out causing bearing damage. No excess fuel in oil.
Thanks for your input.
Ken
 
I am sick for you that this happened. Sounds like you are capable of doing most of the work yourself which hopefully will soften the financial blow.
The aftercooler is often blamed for failure of 3196's but is not always the problem. When you pressure test the cooler I would really be interested in hearing the results. I have done extensive research on the 3196 aftercooler issue. What I found was it was not the cooler itself but the o-rings at the front of the cooler that failed. I can't remember what Cat used for the fittings that the Orings go on at the front of the cooler but somehow (as I understand it) the metal in the fittings would disintegrate causing massive water intrusion.
Once again sorry for your problem. It would be great if you kept posting thru this problem as I am always interested in issues with the 3196.

Good luck Jack
 
Have you thought about pulling the rod and main caps (obviously one by one ) to see if in fact there is damage. The reason I ask is I believe you can do the piston and liners while the engine is still in the boat. That would be only if all looked good on the bearings. I realize this would be a major PIA but not as bad as pulling the saloon out.
I don't know what kind of room you have in the 48's engine room but I know I could do it on my 56. If you already have the head off you just have the oil pan. On my 56 I would have to use mirrors and a lot of blind feeling for bolt heads but It could be done. If there is any thing I can help you with let me know.
As Bon said earlier cutting the filter would be best. If it's full of metal none of this would work and the engine would have to be pulled.

Jack
 
Re: Cat 3196 problems

Thanks for you sympathy Jack, I do believe I am committed to pulling the complete engine as I would bet the house at mininum the crank is damaged. I already have the salon removed, floor removed, waiting for a break in the weather to disconnect the balance of the engine and have the yard pull it.
As for the aftercooler issues,the first thing I did when I purchased the boat 150 hours ago was to pull the aftercoolers and heat exchangers. the aftercoolers were spotless except for a corrision type build up around the orings. ( this area i have seen defective aftercoolers with serious corrosion damage ) the heat exchangers were 20% clogged and required a boiling and rodding. both componets are spotless as of this teardown, 2 years, 150 hours.
My problem is that this engine has been very well maintained by myself since purchase and records indicate it was maintained by the 1 previous owner.
However I did locate some records from Cat that major repairs were done under warranty, ex aftercoolers, turbo, crankshaft.
I know Cat has replaced many of these engines due to aftercooler problems why not mine so this result didn't happen. Information indicates that of 4700 engines manufactured 4500 have had major warranty repairs or replacement.
My main problem is if I spend alot lot of cash on this sick engine will it ever be capable of cruising with peace of mind?
My dream is to cruise!
I have been uable to talk to any Cat rep directly all request have been directed to the local service manager who informs that Cat will do nothing!
I don't beleive the engines are not as bad as there reputaion if they are maintained as they should be but if an engine is damaged it will also cause damage to other major componets that weaken them and fail at a later date.
If anyone has had experience with Cat on these engins please reply?
Thanks Ken yachtsaboats@live.com
 
I am told by our local Cat dealer that the class action suit effectively stopped Caterpillar from doing anything to help owners in terms of warranty, extending warranties, engine replacements, etc. on the 3196. They...i.e. the dealer.....does still service and repair engines for customers so you most likely are only going to get help from your local guys.

I suspect getting any communication going on a 3196 with Caterpillar is unlikely while the class action suit is in the court system.
 
I am told by our local Cat dealer that the class action suit effectively stopped Caterpillar from doing anything to help owners in terms of warranty, extending warranties, engine replacements, etc. on the 3196. They...i.e. the dealer.....does still service and repair engines for customers so you most likely are only going to get help from your local guys.

I suspect getting any communication going on a 3196 with Caterpillar is unlikely while the class action suit is in the court system.

Frank you may be closer to this than I am, but I was a member of the class. As I recall, some time ago the class was decertified by a judge, so the class action suit is over.
 
No........I am not close at all. I don't have 3196's so I have not tried to keep up. I just know that both Cat dealers I deal with, Tennessee and in Florida, neither one wants to discuss 3196's and you get the usual..."corp legal says we can't talk about that, but if you have one that needs service we'll be glad to help."

I'll defer to you on this one..........





OK, I did a quick read on this and it seems the judge found a lack of commonality in the various claims cited in trying to get the class certified. His opinion was that the proper forum was individual claims not a class action, hence his decertification of the class. He did not rule on Caterpillar's liability or opine that the 3196 was not faulty. Personally, I don't think the class decertification will change Cat's approach to 3196 customers because several of the original plaintiffs have now filed individually.....but, I'm not Caterpillar.
 
Last edited:
Re: Cat 3196 problems

Thanks Frank & Mr Salt, I know the class action suit has been dismissed for many varations is claims. a new class action suit is possible in florida.

Mr. Salt, you have a vessel that orginally had 3196 and now you have C-12s, did you experience catastrofic failure? did cat replace them under warranty? do you like them?

standing by; Ken "Re & Me" 02 48 DB
 
Ken, did your surveyor view the CAT service records on the motors or did you find out about the warranty work after the deal was done? Did CAT do a full work up on the motors during your due diligence process?

good luck, hoping for the best for you. tim
 
Tim
Service records were examined, the warranty records were not avalible. I did not have the engines surveyed, even if i scoped the engines it may not reveal the possibility of future failure. (i've owned the boat for 3 yrs)
The Cat warranty info was not avalible.
 
i understand. there are alot of people who have these motors and have never had a bit of trouble. even though i verified the aftercooler updates had been done and had caterpillar go through the motors, i know I still rolled the dice. keep us informed if you don't mind, we're pulling for you!
 
Ken,
Do you have any speculation as to what caused the failure? Did the aftercooler leak? The O ring area you mentioned is what I was talking about when it comes to failures. I was told Cat used some kind of crummy material for the fittings at the front of the cooler and they just disentegrated around the Orings Thus causing the massive water intrusion. When they did the warranty work these were replaced with brass or something comparable. I can't remember what the metal was but I know the new ones look like brass.
If you figure out what happened let us know.
I hope for your sake you can find the failure, get rebuilt and reinstalled with out a lot of hassles.
Depending on what the failure was will make or break your faith on the reliability of the rebuild.

Jack
 
Ken: Disappointing developments on your engine for sure. The 3196 basic engine is not much different from any other. Over the years I’ve seen an awful lot of spun rod bearings, broken piston rings,,,, . Very few bent rods, always from a mechanical hit; a bent rod typically locked up the engine or destroyed the cylinder and eventually ventilated the block. The 3196 rod is short and very stout. Hydrostatic lock may blow the fire ring out before the rod bends.

I’m interested to see what you find to be the root cause of all this.
 
Thanks guys, soon as i disassemble i'll post (still cold waiting for a break).
Ken
 
Re: Cat 3196 problems

Thanks Frank & Mr Salt, I know the class action suit has been dismissed for many varations is claims. a new class action suit is possible in florida.

Mr. Salt, you have a vessel that orginally had 3196 and now you have C-12s, did you experience catastrofic failure? did cat replace them under warranty? do you like them?

standing by; Ken "Re & Me" 02 48 DB

I went throught 3 3196's. The first blew when we were bringing the boat up from Merrit Island, the engine had 24 hours on it when it blew. Back to factory to have engine pulled and replaced. For the next two seasons at least one aftecooler failed and I lost the boat mid season. After alot of discussion Cat, in 2003, offered to replace the engines with new 3196's or for a check replace the 3196's with C-12's, I took the later option. My guess is that since the first engine had a catastrophic failure I got some slack from them and Sea Ray. I also allows Cat to use my boat as a test bed for aftercooler modifications, which apparently did no good anyway.

I recently had riser failure which fed raw water back to the turbos. We caught it early enough and no damage was done to the engine other than to turbo housing. Thank God it was a Cat turbo not a MAN. Cat turbos are cheap.

Hope this helps
 

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