Audio Bass feels directional - add a 2nd sub woofer?

M

mrsrobinson

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2006
7,704
Virginia
Boat Info
2001 380DA
Engines
Caterpillar 3126
The factory cockpit subwoofer on my boat is mounted on the starboard side. When sitting close to the subwoofer bass is great, when not, well, it's not. I hear the mids and highs from the 6.5s. I think adding another sub woofer on the opposite side will help. Will it? If it will what's the preferred solution to power 2 subwoofers (amps)? 1 mono, 2 mono, 1 for both, etc.

Or, should I get better 6.5s?


Thanks
 
I have one Kicker 10" sub on my boat. It's in the middle of the boat grant you, but it is also down firing. It's mounted in the upper seating and can be felt everywhere. It's powered by 200w. My amp is 75 watts RMS x 4 + 200 Watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms I have the same speakers as you, Kicker 6.5 with LED's. New this year. My neighbor has all JL Audio and likes the sound of mine better. Not sure what to say there as JL Audio is my favorite, just over priced, IMO.

Anyway I would try upgrading your main amp first as it seems you never did that because of wiring. If you put in a 2nd mono amp for a 2nd sub you'll be wiring for sure.

You could try putting them in parallel if your current amp support 2 ohm speakers. My friend has your boat and his sounds great. Same type of setup, just new speakers and amps. Not sure where you mount a 2nd sub?
 
What amp and sub do you have currently?
mrsrobinson said:
The factory cockpit subwoofer on my boat is mounted on the starboard side. When sitting close to the subwoofer bass is great, when not, well, it's not. I hear the mids and highs from the 6.5s. I think adding another sub woofer on the opposite side will help. Will it? If it will what's the preferred solution to power 2 subwoofers (amps)? 1 mono, 2 mono, 1 for both, etc.

Or, should I get better 6.5s?


Thanks
Click to expand...
 
I'm also looking at adding a second sub woofer as part of a stereo upgrade project. My sub is towards the front of the U shaped settee on the starboard siode as well, so I'm thinking one towards the back. I'm wanting to put a Fusion Signature 3 inbetween to add some volume in the back (with the mating pare opposite under the step to the gunwales.

As far as sub and wiring. lots of ways of doing it, but Cruthfield has a number of wiring diagrams. Probably the easiest is a single mono sub amp 2 Ohm stable with 2 identical subs wired in parallel.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-gJ0xYbf4VKv/learn/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_wiring.html

As to specifics..

JL Audio MX500/1 with 2x 10" subs rated at 250 Watts RMS, wire in Parallel.

But your going to have to add some big wires/distribution blocks, fuses.

upload_2023-5-11_20-45-42.png
 
mrsrobinson said:
It's the factory Clarion 4 channel amp pushing all five speakers in the cockpit.
Click to expand...
I think a single sub can do ok if it’s driven properly. Bass is always directional.

If someone adds a second sub on a 380 it’s typically on the port step to the foredeck, or the end of the double helm seat by the fire extinguisher

@Wylie_Tunes will have good advice on this.
 
mrsrobinson said:
It's the factory Clarion 4 channel amp pushing all five speakers in the cockpit.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the capacitors in that amp are way beyond their expected life span, likely contributing to less that stellar performance. A new $250 4x50W dropped right in place of the old amp would likely make a huge difference, or at least make it sound as it did when new.

No re-wiring required.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113XM3024/Kenwood-Excelon-XM302-4.html?tp=96419

Edit this would give you 75W into the 4 speakers wired in parallel, and 150W (bridged to the sub)
 
mrsrobinson said:
It's the factory Clarion 4 channel amp pushing all five speakers in the cockpit.
Click to expand...
With the factory sub? To me that is just old and not very much power if you want it to thump. A boat is so different to have bass in it compared to a car. In another thread people were talking about kicker speakers and response. They seem to take less power to move, but handle less power also. I would get a different amp regardless. @Wylie_Tunes recomended a 800.5 kicker amp with a dedicated sun channel that I am happy with. I have added another amp also because I have 8-6.5” in the cockpit area
 
Chris-380 said:
With the factory sub? To me that is just old and not very much power if you want it to thump. A boat is so different to have bass in it compared to a car. In another thread people were talking about kicker speakers and response. They seem to take less power to move, but handle less power also. I would get a different amp regardless. @Wylie_Tunes recomended a 800.5 kicker amp with a dedicated sun channel that I am happy with. I have added another amp also because I have 8-6.5” in the cockpit area
Click to expand...
No, Kicker, which replaced a Fusion, which I am guessing replaced the factory one:


I am all for a new amp, bought the Kicker 5 channel one from Crutchfield this winter than you folks told me I need to run 4 gauge wire directly from the battery. I don't feel like doing that right now so I paused. Looking like that is the next step though.
 
Chris-380 said:
With the factory sub? To me that is just old and not very much power if you want it to thump. A boat is so different to have bass in it compared to a car. In another thread people were talking about kicker speakers and response. They seem to take less power to move, but handle less power also. I would get a different amp regardless. @Wylie_Tunes recomended a 800.5 kicker amp with a dedicated sun channel that I am happy with. I have added another amp also because I have 8-6.5” in the cockpit area
Click to expand...

Jeez, Chris, you must want to hear your music throughout the entire marina! :)
 
In not sure exactly which Clarion amp model is there, but if my memory serves me right, its like 180W rms x 2 to a bridged 4 ohm load. The KMF104 has a 175W rms rating. So on paper, this sounds like a perfect match. However, that 180W (or whatever the spec is) is obtained by loaded both bridged chnls their minimum impedance, just to meet the woofer's rms. So this amp is running peddle to the metal to drive a woofer that has to cover a fairly larger area thats mostly open. It also looks like the woofer is tucked away under some kind of structure. So its output needs to travel a good 16-18 inches maybe, before it can begin to radiate out around the cockpit. So a portion of output is eaten up already.

Next; That bridged amp does not have the most expansive tuning controls. Its got a fixed sub-sonic, likely fixed at 25Hz. Basically, the floor, or the lowest frequency the amp will push out to the woofer. IMO, this is WAY to low for a 10" free-air woofer. As the Hz get lower, it take more energy, and in some cases, more cone movement. So what happens while tuning. we hear the woofer distort as we turn the gain up. This distortion can be due to the low subsonic and NOT from the gain level. So we back off the gain at that point, but the amp may have some power available and the woofer could handle it, IF we raise the floor. For this, we need an amp with an adjustable sub-sonic filter.

If I was going to chose an amp for that 4 ohm woofer, id want one that rated in the 300-400 W rms @ 4 ohm. The Kicker KXMA9005 is in that wattage range, however, its at 2 ohm, not 4 ohm. So I would not go with it, unless, you swap to a 2 ohm woofer or decide to add a 2nd 4 ohm KMF104. Then it would 400W rms divided by the two woofers.

Adding a 2nd woofer? Unless you can get both woofers on the same plane, I would look for a location thats completely isolated by the seating arrangement, from the original woofer location.
 
Current/Factory amp is the Clarion APA 4204. It looks to be bridged for the sub and than all 4 6.5 speaker wires go to the remaining two outputs (not sure you'd call that bridged or not). If I read the bellow specs correctly bridged is 130 to the sub? And then the 6.5s are getting, what?

@Wylie_Tunes looks like you are in NC, my boat is in VA, want to comer up and spend a day tuning it for me? ;) I can pay you well :)

@Wylie_Tunes Critchfield is recommending this amp based on your feedback here: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_130GMDX975/Pioneer-GM-DX975.html?tp=35808

Thoughts?

Features & specs
Performance
RMS Power Output (Watts x Channels) 50 x 4
Peak Power Output (Watts x Channels) 90 x 4
Power at 2 Ohms (Watts x Channels) N/A
Bridged Power (Watts x Channels) 130 x 2
Minimum Impedance Bridged 4
Minimum Impedance Unbridged 2
Minimum Impedance 2
Best Frequency Response 10-50kHz Hz
THD at Rated RMS Power 0.04%
Signal to Noise Ratio 103 dB
Input Voltage 14.4v
Features
Amplifier Class AB
Low-Pass Crossover Frequency 50-200 Hz
Low-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 12 dB
High-Pass Crossover Frequency 50-200 Hz
High-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 12 dB
Bass Boost 0-12 dB
Bass Boost Frequency 40 Hz
Fan Cooled No
Fuse Rating 25 x 2
Speaker Level Inputs ---
Preamp Outputs 1 pair
 
It took me like 2 hours to run that wire…. Just do it!
mrsrobinson said:
No, Kicker, which replaced a Fusion, which I am guessing replaced the factory one:


I am all for a new amp, bought the Kicker 5 channel one from Crutchfield this winter than you folks told me I need to run 4 gauge wire directly from the battery. I don't feel like doing that right now so I paused. Looking like that is the next step though.
Click to expand...
 
NespoJoe said:
Jeez, Chris, you must want to hear your music throughout the entire marina! :)
Click to expand...
Lol, it really isn’t crazy loud, I have 3 zones in the cockpit, so it allows me to tune it (volume wise) to where we are located….
 
@Wylie_Tunes is a professional at this stuff, his experience is priceless. You can not go by what pioneer rates an amp and compare apples to apples to the higher quality equipment. Plus it’s a car amp, may work fine for a while in the salon behind the couch, but spend a few bucks and get the kicker amp he is recommending. The subsonic filter that allows you to essentially put a band pass on the sub keeps the sub from bottoming out on the low bass that an Infinate baffle sub can not handle. To me it’s embarrassing when the sub just makes that dead sound because it’s too low to handle it. Boats take money and work. Spend the money, run the wire and get a sound system that will be clear and perform the way it should.


mrsrobinson said:
Current/Factory amp is the Clarion APA 4204. It looks to be bridged for the sub and then all 4 6.5 speaker wires go to the remaining two outputs (not sure you'd call that bridged or not). If I read the bellow specs correctly bridged is 130 to the sub? And then the 6.5s are getting, what?

@Wylie_Tunes looks like you are in NC, my boat is in VA, want to comer up and spend a day tuning it for me? ;) I can pay you well :)

@Wylie_Tunes Critchfield is recommending this amp based on your feedback here: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_130GMDX975/Pioneer-GM-DX975.html?tp=35808

Thoughts?

Features & specs
Performance
RMS Power Output (Watts x Channels) 50 x 4
Peak Power Output (Watts x Channels) 90 x 4
Power at 2 Ohms (Watts x Channels) N/A
Bridged Power (Watts x Channels) 130 x 2
Minimum Impedance Bridged 4
Minimum Impedance Unbridged 2
Minimum Impedance 2
Best Frequency Response 10-50kHz Hz
THD at Rated RMS Power 0.04%
Signal to Noise Ratio 103 dB
Input Voltage 14.4v
Features
Amplifier Class AB
Low-Pass Crossover Frequency 50-200 Hz
Low-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 12 dB
High-Pass Crossover Frequency 50-200 Hz
High-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 12 dB
Bass Boost 0-12 dB
Bass Boost Frequency 40 Hz
Fan Cooled No
Fuse Rating 25 x 2
Speaker Level Inputs ---
Preamp Outputs 1 pair
Click to expand...
 
Unless I misunderstood @Wylie_Tunes the kicker amp won't work, that's why I went looking for one that will work.. I'm all for using that kicker amp but he's saying it won't work.

"If I was going to chose an amp for that 4 ohm woofer, id want one that rated in the 300-400 W rms @ 4 ohm. The Kicker KXMA9005 is in that wattage range, however, its at 2 ohm, not 4 ohm. So I would not go with it"
 
Add the second sub then, just make sure it’s in the same plane so they work together
mrsrobinson said:
Unless I misunderstood @Wylie_Tunes the kicker amp won't work, that's why I went looking for one that will work.. I'm all for using that kicker amp but he's saying it won't work.

"If I was going to chose an amp for that 4 ohm woofer, id want one that rated in the 300-400 W rms @ 4 ohm. The Kicker KXMA9005 is in that wattage range, however, its at 2 ohm, not 4 ohm. So I would not go with it"
Click to expand...
 
What's frustrating me now is it sounds like I upgraded to the wrong sub. Before adding a second sub wouldn't it be easier to purchase a 2 ohm subwoofer?
 
Chris-380 said:
Add the second sub then, just make sure it’s in the same plane so they work together
Click to expand...

What do you guys mean by "same plane"? There aren't too many places to put a second sub, but my thought would be right next to the current one but separated by about 5-6 ft. under the lounge. This is the same air space, so I'd imagine they would have to be in phase to work together.
 
mrsrobinson said:
What's frustrating me now is it sounds like I upgraded to the wrong sub. Before adding a second sub wouldn't it be easier to purchase a 2 ohm subwoofer?
Click to expand...

I upgraded the power to my sub and it made a pretty dramatic difference, and I havent added the mono block sub amp yet.
 
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