Replace genset with lithium batteries and a inverter...

Good to know about the Quattro. The fact that they didn’t switch the neutrals on the multiplus 2x120 makes it extremely limited.

I’m considering rearranging my loads in my panel to run the inverter on either L1 or L2. There are some loads like the microwave and, range, water heater, engine battery charger that I don’t plan on running off of the inverter.

Or just stick the inverter on the generator side and use the lithium battery charger that I already have to charge the house batteries while on shore power.
 
jmauld said:
Good to know about the Quattro. The fact that they didn’t switch the neutrals on the multiplus 2x120 makes it extremely limited.

I’m considering rearranging my loads in my panel to run the inverter on either L1 or L2. There are some loads like the microwave and, range, water heater, engine battery charger that I don’t plan on running off of the inverter.

Or just stick the inverter on the generator side and use the lithium battery charger that I already have to charge the house batteries while on shore power.
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There is a programmable relay on all the Victron inverter/chargers. That relay can control a switching relay(s) to split and combine the neutrals. Easy to do with the Victron stuff.
 
ttmott said:
There is a programmable relay on all the Victron inverter/chargers. That relay can control a switching relay(s) to split and combine the neutrals. Easy to do with the Victron stuff.
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So you could run L1 line, L1 Neutral and L2 Line through the multiplus and then it switch the L2 neutral onto the L1 Neutral?

What I also need to know is if the multiplus will sit tight if just L1 or L2 shore power drops or if it will start working as soon as one of them drops off. I don’t have anything on board that needs an uninterruptible power supply. And I don’t really want one leg of shore power to work and the inverter to also work.
 
jmauld said:
So you could run L1 line, L1 Neutral and L2 Line through the multiplus and then it switch the L2 neutral onto the L1 Neutral?

What I also need to know is if the multiplus will sit tight if just L1 or L2 shore power drops or if it will start working as soon as one of them drops off. I don’t have anything on board that needs an uninterruptible power supply. And I don’t really want one leg of shore power to work and the inverter to also work.
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The whole idea of an integrated ATS is so the inverter picks up when the utility drops. You can always turn off the inverter until you need it. It will stay on the utility and charge the battery. That is a bit complex to turn it on and off.
 
ttmott said:
The whole idea of an integrated ATS is so the inverter picks up when the utility drops. You can always turn off the inverter until you need it. It will stay on the utility and charge the battery. That is a bit complex to turn it on and off.
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I know. But I’m worried about fringe situations like L1 or L2 coming unplugged and then the inverter start doing its thing and joins the circuits together. Meanwhile there’s an unplugged connected laying on the dock with power.
I’ll take a closer look at some of the other options.
 
Yes I know. But I’m talking about using the multiplus II 2x120 in a scenario that it doesn’t appear to be designed to handle. I don’t like the idea of even presenting that opportunity.

I’m also currently sitting on a plane so I can’t draw this stuff out to visualize it properly. I know in the situation that I’m considering the GFCIs should protect against. But I also know that my slips GFCIs were not wired correctly until I pointed it out.
 
You guys are making Westerbekes and Kohlers the easy choice when compared to a lithium battery pack. ;)

I’m sure you will sort it out but if anything goes sideways……I can’t believe your insurance company is going to be supportive regardless of the design and equipment being used.
 
I followed Tom’s schematic with the MS2812, and I have it automatically switching 4 circuits (microwave, coffee pot, port and starboard outlets) when no AC power is available. Has been very reliable, easy to operate and I have not had any shore power issues related to the inverter.

If the Quattro has a ATS that switches the neutrals, it should be drop in replacement.

What is difficult is finding a place for the inverter and batteries, especially considering how short the leads need to be. A 24v or 48v inverter gives more flexibility with the distance between these items, but you’ll also need more cells/batteries to get those voltages. 24v probably offers the best compromise. Lead Distances are round trip (+ and -). For 12V with 2x 4/0 wire, the total wire length is supposed to be 10’ or less.
 
PlayDate said:
You guys are making Westerbekes and Kohlers the easy choice when compared to a lithium battery pack. ;)

I’m sure you will sort it out but if anything goes sideways……I can’t believe your insurance company is going to be supportive regardless of the design and equipment being used.
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It’s really not that hard as long as you consider and identify some of these things ahead of time. Or you could do like many others and just install it and likely never have a problem. I’m not suggesting that though.

I suspect the insurance thing will sort itself out fairly quickly. The market is going to move to lithium batteries, there’s no turning back at this point. The insurance companies will either have to accept that or they will lose a lot of high paying customers, and other companies will seize that opportunity.
 
dtfeld said:
I followed Tom’s schematic with the MS2812, and I have it automatically switching 4 circuits (microwave, coffee pot, port and starboard outlets) when no AC power is available. Has been very reliable, easy to operate and I have not had any shore power issues related to the inverter.

If the Quattro has a ATS that switches the neutrals, it should be drop in replacement.

What is difficult is finding a place for the inverter and batteries, especially considering how short the leads need to be. A 24v or 48v inverter gives more flexibility with the distance between these items, but you’ll also need more cells/batteries to get those voltages. 24v probably offers the best compromise. Lead Distances are round trip (+ and -). For 12V with 2x 4/0 wire, the total wire length is supposed to be 10’ or less.
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I have questions about Tom’s schematic that you have referenced. And maybe it’s because I’m looking at this one schematic out of context. I think it will work because he is sourcing his power from a 240v, 50a service and splitting that to his dual 30 A service. But I think that the port and stbd system loads are sharing line 2 neutral and galley systems is on line 1 neutral. The inverter looks to be connected to line 1 neutral? If he were to have something plugged into the port or stbd system and he is sourcing his shore power from dual 120v 30A circuits with GFCI protection, He will open the GFCI. Unless, the neutrals on all three of these circuits have been relocated to the neutral that’s shared with the inverter?

Tom am I wrong in how I have interpreted your schematic?
 
You should be OK. The dock side ground fault protection device for the 50 amp 240 volt supply (two pole ground fault circuit breaker) is comparing the two hot legs to the single neutral and between the two hot legs themselves making sure all of the current sent and returned is accounted for. For dual 120 V feeds independently connected to the dock power there will/should be separate ground fault circuits and differently from the 240 V, the hot is compared to only the neutral in each for balance and again you are good. When inverting the neutral and hot legs fed by the inverter are isolated from the shorepower supply and the neutral and ground are tied at the inverter; the inverter is the power source. This is why there is a separate common/neutral buss bar for the inverter fed circuits and why I surprised the Victron Multiplus II doesn't break the shorepower neutrals. I think there is more to that inverter. The boat's GFCI devices the inverter feeds operate as normal.
Some configurations try to combine two 120 volt dock feeds to make up a 240 volt 50 amp boat circuit and tying the separate neutrals together. Unless you use the special combiner adapter cord the ground faults on the dock will trip. Many 120 V dual dock circuits are on the same phase and consequently the boat will only see 120 volts to the neutrals, not the desired 240 volts between the hots and the boat will not operate at all if it has an isolation transformer. Otherwise, without an isolation transformer, the 120 volt things will work but obviously nothing 240 volt will work.
 
Tom I found a post from you that said the same thing I did. You have to move the neutrals of those loads, which you stated in one of Dt’s previous threads. That wasn’t clear to me in your schematic.
 
jmauld said:
Tom I found a post from you that said the same thing I did. You have to move the neutrals of those loads, which you stated in one of Dt’s previous threads. That wasn’t clear to me in your schematic.
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It's in the schematic, look for the red colored neutral/common buss bar that is wired to the inverter. That is a new buss bar specific for the three circuit neutrals that are powered by the inverter.
 
Did you see where ABYC is requiring some of these components to be UL listed. Victron will have some work to do.
 
@dtfeld where did you source your battery wiring and fuse? Looks like my wife is getting me an inverter for Christmas so she’s on board with this install.
 
jmauld said:
@ttmott found a battery that might make your electrical designers happy.
https://panbo.com/lithium-pros-lifepo4-batteries-small-boat-battery-perfection/
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Oh but the cost.....
Before I pulled the pin on the Li design we looked at the Maxwell Ultra-Cap engine start modules which is somewhat like the concept Panbo reviewed. This shows the Maxwell system - https://transportation.wv.gov/highways/training/TrainingDocuments/Maxwell-Start-Module-Handout.pdf
There are some special use procedures needed on the ultra-cap systems. We had some correspondence with Maxwell a couple of years ago; they wanted to reduce the cable size from 4/0 to 2/0 between the module and starter motor on my QSM11's in order to limit the current. It seems on trucks the inrush capability is so great they were blowing the brushes out of the starter motors. The difference between the ones Panbo reviewed and the Maxwell is the Caps are parallel with the lithium batteries and were charged directly with the charging of the lithium cells - Maxwell the caps were charged through a separate charging circuit and the two could not be cross connected. This brought way too many complications and failure modes into the mix. Just before we stopped work on the design we had another discussion with Battleborn on their GC3 battery. They contend it is suitable for engine starting and for large current requirements like diesel engines in a parallel configuration with equal length conductors. We measured an 800 amp inrush (locked rotor) with a 350 amp rotating current requirement for the engine. With a 1080 Ah battery arrangement (4 GC3 batteries) correctly configured there was 1200 amps continuous and 2000 amps for 30 seconds on tap; more than enough. But, the system designers were not comfortable using the Li for starting. And then AYBC and the insurance industry dropped the hammer.... unfortunate for us trying to do it right.
 
Yeah that price is a bit much for a single battery. Hopefully competition will bring that down a bit. I would be in on these IF their price were to drop to about 60% of current price and I could replace my two group 31 batteries with one of these.

It will be curious to see how they handle windlass and bow thruster loads as well.
 
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