Stereo Install Questions - 44 Sundancer

Magic34

Magic34

Member
Jul 7, 2015
149
Live in AZ, Boat in San Diego
Boat Info
Former 44 Sundancer Owner
Engines
Currently Self Powered
I have a 2007 44 DA.

Just ordered my new stereo stuff, going to install it within the next 2 weeks. I had asked the question before, but cant find the answer...

Does anyone know how hard, or how to make it easy.... to run new power wire from the current amp location to the battery in the bilge? I'm simply replacing all the stock components with the good stuff, and might as well put some good wire in at the same time, besides I need to for the amp (4 gauge). Speaker wire in the cockpit will be easy, it's the power wire giving me heartburn.

I remember someone saying to remove the panel in the storage compartment behind the cabin door (in cockpit).

My thought is to tape the new wire to the old and pull through, but are all the wires clamped behind the walls all the way to the battery? If so, that wont work.

Also, Do you know what gauge the stock speaker wire is? I think I need to run 12 or 14 gauge speaker wire, I doubt that is what is in there now. It "shouldn't" be bad to do, except has anyone taken the assembly apart at the switch on the wall where you can turn on/off salon and cockpit speakers? I'll have to get there also and that one worries me a little also. I like the ability to turn the cabin speakers on and off, so knowing how to get to that and how it is wired would be extremely helpful as well.
 
I have 1000 watt and 400 watt amplifiers for the cockpit and solon respectively. For the power I picked up the main DC feed to the breaker panel in the cabin and fused that right there. There was no need to run all the way back to the batteries for me.
IMG_3652.jpgIMG_4133.jpg
 
ttmott said:
I have 1000 watt and 400 watt amplifiers for the cockpit and solon respectively. For the power I picked up the main DC feed to the breaker panel in the cabin and fused that right there. There was no need to run all the way back to the batteries for me.
View attachment 49982View attachment 49983
Click to expand...

Excellent advice. That's exactly how I will do it.
For sale: 50 feet of four gauge power wire


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If you are going to be driving each speaker with 200+W rms each then 14ga is sufficient. If you are going to be driving them with 300+W rms, then step up to 12ga. In reality, 999 out of 1000 systems, never need even 14ga for their in-boats. We dont see those kinds of wattage until we get into tower speakers and woofers.

I would suggest running the amp ground direct to the battery bank, not a common BUS. For the amp B+, I suggest direct to the main battery switch, rather than a remote positive post.
 
Wylie_Tunes said:
I would suggest running the amp ground direct to the battery bank, not a common BUS. For the amp B+, I suggest direct to the main battery switch, rather than a remote positive post.
Click to expand...

For what "practical" reason?
 
ttmott said:
For what "practical" reason?
Click to expand...

For less chance of noise to get into system and you know the gage of cable used. Just good practice!

Matt, Hifirush


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
So let's think about the noise issue - Assume a direct battery connection is desired as the battery is a great (call it) sink for noise on any circuits. However, the longer the wires are the more chance they can be influenced by inductive and capacitive coupling from any AC powered items or AC wiring which can be every bit of a noise issue. Regardless, the cabling from the solon breaker panels is another 25 feet (in my boat) to the battery disconnect however it is a real PIA to get wire routed unless it is wired parallel to all of the other boat conductors going from the solon and helm to engine room. So this is the basis I asked for what practical reason.

Regarding gauge of cable - the primary house feed from the batteries (in my boat) and pretty sure the OP's boat is single 0 (both positive and negative) from the house battery bank disconnect / batteries to the breaker panel board in the solon. These conductors are approximately 25 feet long. Assume (in my case I verified) the OP's DC house circuit design fully loads at 80% the conductor capability for that length (100% of the house load is used); this is conservative for 25 feet of single 0 cable based upon the total DC house loads. Now look at a NEMA load factor of 60% (not all DC devices are on at the same time) and that gives an excess load capacity of over 50%. I would say from a load perspective there is plenty of margin for most amplifier installations on the house primary conductors.

Secondly, modern audio equipment have very good filters that clean up the power very well. I would be more concerned about the speaker wiring than power wiring....

So, I would submit your suggestions are technically sound and in a perfect world correct, but from a practical aspect difficult to implement and realize little if any gain.
Tom
 
ttmott said:
For what "practical" reason?
Click to expand...

Lets start with current draw. When adding additional electrical draw to an OEM BUS, you might be adding current draw to a cable that the boat manufacturer has not calculated for. So, there is a chance that that factory BUS might be overloaded.

Noise. Audio can be very sensitive to unwanted noise. terminating directly to the battery is the best method of preventing unwanted audio noise. A good battery acts as a filter. The further away from it we connect, the less it helps.
 
ttmott said:
So let's think about the noise issue - Assume a direct battery connection is desired as the battery is a great (call it) sink for noise on any circuits. However, the longer the wires are the more chance they can be influenced by inductive and capacitive coupling from any AC powered items or AC wiring which can be every bit of a noise issue. Regardless, the cabling from the solon breaker panels is another 25 feet (in my boat) to the battery disconnect however it is a real PIA to get wire routed unless it is wired parallel to all of the other boat conductors going from the solon and helm to engine room. So this is the basis I asked for what practical reason.

Regarding gauge of cable - the primary house feed from the batteries (in my boat) and pretty sure the OP's boat is single 0 (both positive and negative) from the house battery bank disconnect / batteries to the breaker panel board in the solon. These conductors are approximately 25 feet long. Assume (in my case I verified) the OP's DC house circuit design fully loads at 80% the conductor capability for that length (100% of the house load is used); this is conservative for 25 feet of single 0 cable based upon the total DC house loads. Now look at a NEMA load factor of 60% (not all DC devices are on at the same time) and that gives an excess load capacity of over 50%. I would say from a load perspective there is plenty of margin for most amplifier installations on the house primary conductors.

Secondly, modern audio equipment have very good filters that clean up the power very well. I would be more concerned about the speaker wiring than power wiring....

So, I would submit your suggestions are technically sound and in a perfect world correct, but from a practical aspect difficult to implement and realize little if any gain.
Tom
Click to expand...

And let's get a bit deeper into it -
Let's say we have a 1000 Watt RMS amplifier, that is a little over 83 amps (1000 watts /12 volts = 83.3 amps) at the rated power level; let's round that up to 90 amps for connection losses and voltage drops in cabling.
95% of the time the audio system is in operation approximately 40% of the amplifier is loaded which says the bulk of the usage will demand 36 amps.
I summed up all of the DC house circuits in my boat and came to a whopping 58 amps and this is if everything is on at once (refer, both head systems, all vents, all lights, etc) which is not a realistic baseline.
However, worst case 1000 watt amp at 90 amps and all house at 58 amps which is 148 amps.
Now in my case and I believe the OP's the cabling is single 0 from the house battery disconnect switch to the DC power panel in the cabin.
If you look at the ampacity charts for single 0 cable at lets say 25 feet you have a capability of 285 amps allowing for a non-critical circuit design 10% drop in voltage.
So, from a NEMA circuit design perspective use a 60% load factor (not everything is on at the same time) our 148 amps now become a more realistic 89 amps.
If you should want to classify the circuit as Critical and limit to a 3% voltage drop then our single 0 cable can manage 120 amps which still gives adequate margin to have the amplifiers on the existing wiring.
 
Last edited:
Tom,

I’m very glad your system is working so well for you, you have obviously put a great deal of research and thought into it. Your wiring is clean and you should be proud of the work you have done.

Wylie Tunes and I are simply sharing what we have found that works, in many mobile installs, yes this includes cars, ATV’s, motorcycles, boats and as well as (speaking for myself), home systems, by using the method we described. Your dazzling explaination is well thought out and “technically” right. For whatever reason, doing as I described as well as Wylie has, has helped make a lot of systems noise free. Yes, we are technically sound as you say and the practicality is in simplicity of running the cables to the battery. No gain, perhaps, but it is one less opening for electrical interference.

As for your statement that “modern audio equipment has very good filters that clean up the power very well”, this is not completely true. Mobile amps dont have the footprint size for such systems/technologiy to be built in, although some manufacturers do try to control the fluctuation of voltage as well as use technology that keep internal componenents from "cross talking”, or in other words, noise. Balanced input cables definately help the signal staying clean. And yes, there are ways to help even out power flow with the use of Farad capacitors, but they do nothing to combat noise. Power cables are we are talking about here.

In home audio, amps don’t even really address the noise issues of the electricity being used. There are many power conditioners, “Monster Cable Power Conditioners” being a readily available and easily recognizable brand, although very entry level to many in the audiophile world, as well as power regenerators, such as PS Audio Power Plants and many other brands. These are designed to tackle power sources in a home stereo installation, usually with systems that will be enjoyed through critical listening. The differences between systems with and without them is noticable, at least to my ears.

None of the modern or for that matter, classic ampilfiers (both mobile and home based) totally or effectively address the flucuation of power and its induced noise. Ground loop noise is very common in home stereo systems (As well as mobile systems), and this is a not even going too deep into other issues with noise caused by power.

If there are options for mobile power conditioning, I’m not familiar with them, but I claim I am no expert, just a fairly competent audio installer and home system builder, hobbyist. But the amps, even modern ones have little if any components built in to deal with noise, generated by induction from crossed power cables, like you said, speaker wires are VERY susectable to this, or being commonly connected with other electronic devices.

Unlike a house, where refridgerators, AC units, Coffee makers, etc, are usually a distance away, electrically speaking, and more often than not, physical distance as well, a boat doesn’t. Its a much more confined space and along with often many other navigation and safety equipment, (Plotters, GPS’s, VHF’s, engine monitoring equipment, etc) there is a lot more going on.

You have done your homework on whether your OE cable can be tapped into for your purpose, but I submit, its more than just “taking the load” and thats why I suggest wiring like I did, and Wylie did too.
 
Thank you....

So if I should run the negative back to the battery, should I just run the power all the way there too? I don't think running this wire is going to be bad, almost looks like a straight shot... emphasize... almost. I also think all the current speaker wire is good too.

Now that I'm here and started taking some things apart... I think the worst part of this is the remote at the helm that is a direct wire to the head unit.

The stock sub is a 10, and I'm putting a 12, so that extra cut will take a tad more time but after that should be good to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hifirush said:
Tom,

I’m very glad your system is working so well for you, you have obviously put a great deal of research and thought into it. Your wiring is clean and you should be proud of the work you have done.

Wylie Tunes and I are simply sharing what we have found that works, in many mobile installs, yes this includes cars, ATV’s, motorcycles, boats and as well as (speaking for myself), home systems, by using the method we described. Your dazzling explaination is well thought out and “technically” right. For whatever reason, doing as I described as well as Wylie has, has helped make a lot of systems noise free. Yes, we are technically sound as you say and the practicality is in simplicity of running the cables to the battery. No gain, perhaps, but it is one less opening for electrical interference.

As for your statement that “modern audio equipment has very good filters that clean up the power very well”, this is not completely true. Mobile amps dont have the footprint size for such systems/technologiy to be built in, although some manufacturers do try to control the fluctuation of voltage as well as use technology that keep internal componenents from "cross talking”, or in other words, noise. Balanced input cables definately help the signal staying clean. And yes, there are ways to help even out power flow with the use of Farad capacitors, but they do nothing to combat noise. Power cables are we are talking about here.

In home audio, amps don’t even really address the noise issues of the electricity being used. There are many power conditioners, “Monster Cable Power Conditioners” being a readily available and easily recognizable brand, although very entry level to many in the audiophile world, as well as power regenerators, such as PS Audio Power Plants and many other brands. These are designed to tackle power sources in a home stereo installation, usually with systems that will be enjoyed through critical listening. The differences between systems with and without them is noticable, at least to my ears.

None of the modern or for that matter, classic ampilfiers (both mobile and home based) totally or effectively address the flucuation of power and its induced noise. Ground loop noise is very common in home stereo systems (As well as mobile systems), and this is a not even going too deep into other issues with noise caused by power.

If there are options for mobile power conditioning, I’m not familiar with them, but I claim I am no expert, just a fairly competent audio installer and home system builder, hobbyist. But the amps, even modern ones have little if any components built in to deal with noise, generated by induction from crossed power cables, like you said, speaker wires are VERY susectable to this, or being commonly connected with other electronic devices.

Unlike a house, where refridgerators, AC units, Coffee makers, etc, are usually a distance away, electrically speaking, and more often than not, physical distance as well, a boat doesn’t. Its a much more confined space and along with often many other navigation and safety equipment, (Plotters, GPS’s, VHF’s, engine monitoring equipment, etc) there is a lot more going on.

You have done your homework on whether your OE cable can be tapped into for your purpose, but I submit, its more than just “taking the load” and thats why I suggest wiring like I did, and Wylie did too.
Click to expand...

Thank You - very good discussion!
We had a 60 cycle hum issue with the integration of the video/audio system and found issues with coupling and ground loop from the AC power system and inverter. We found this by using a scope and probing the entire system. In the end found the house DC feed in the breaker panel to be very clean and well executed by Sea Ray during the boat's build. But I caution from my own experience routing long runs of wire through common wire conduits that exist in the boat particularly if those runs are parallel for any distance at all with AC wiring.
Tom
 
Magic34 said:
Thank you....

So if I should run the negative back to the battery, should I just run the power all the way there too? I don't think running this wire is going to be bad, almost looks like a straight shot... emphasize... almost. I also think all the current speaker wire is good too.

Now that I'm here and started taking some things apart... I think the worst part of this is the remote at the helm that is a direct wire to the head unit.

The stock sub is a 10, and I'm putting a 12, so that extra cut will take a tad more time but after that should be good to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Without knowing your exact battery/main switch configuration, let me say this. I do not typically like to make a battery-direct positive connection for my amps. I prefer to terminate to the common output that most of the other boat loads come off of. This allows the switch still function as my master disconnect as it does for the rest of the boat.

Now, in most but not all boats, the battery(s) and switch are usually pretty close to each other and in the same direction from the amp(s). So yes, pull both the amp B+ and B- power cables together. B- to the battery ground (which ever is closest for the shortest run or has the least amount of cables already connected) and the B+ to the main switch.
 
ttmott said:
Thank You - very good discussion!
We had a 60 cycle hum issue with the integration of the video/audio system and found issues with coupling and ground loop from the AC power system and inverter. We found this by using a scope and probing the entire system. In the end found the house DC feed in the breaker panel to be very clean and well executed by Sea Ray during the boat's build. But I caution from my own experience routing long runs of wire through common wire conduits that exist in the boat particularly if those runs are parallel for any distance at all with AC wiring.
Tom
Click to expand...

So what resolved the hum?

Long runs dont scare me. As long as the cable gauge is calculated properly for the load. I routinely make long runs up to 25ft. Ill make those long runs to the battery and switch any day of the week, before ill connect to an existing boat BUS. In the end, im likely not chasing noise.
 
Wylie_Tunes said:
So what resolved the hum?

Long runs dont scare me. As long as the cable gauge is calculated properly for the load. I routinely make long runs up to 25ft. Ill make those long runs to the battery and switch any day of the week, before ill connect to an existing boat BUS. In the end, im likely not chasing noise.
Click to expand...

There were two contributors. The major one was the audio out (RCA) on the televisions which is common to the TV chassis (the RCA shell and metal chassis were bonded). The TV chassis (Samsung) and how it was electrically tied to the AC power internally created a ground loop with the battery negative buss. This was fixed in two parts the first was to reconfigure the inverter AC power (inverter powers the televisions as well as all of the boat's AC receptacles) common legs to a single separate buss and to eliminate the RCA cabling and go to Toslink optical digital audio. To interface the optical fiber with the audio system head unit AUX input we used a Gefen optical to analog Dolby converter.
This resolved all but a minor hum; As it ended up the amplifier power cables were routed parallel with the boat's wire harnesses and tied next to the AC power cables that run the Air Conditioning units. At that time the amplifier cables were run through the solon inside the starboard gunnel into the engine room and over and up to the battery primary disconnect which is aft and on the Port side. It was the only realistic way to route the cabling from where the amplifiers were mounted to the disconnect switches. As the AC fans run 24/7 there is always alternating current in the wiring and that in turn created an inductive coupling with the DC power cables to the amplifiers. This we saw on the scope at the amplifier power terminals and isolated to the HVAC system by turning off circuit breakers. We pulled all of the amplifier power cable back and ran it on the cabin floor directly to the disconnects as a test and that resolved the issue. So we put the scope on the DC power panel at the house primary feed and it was very clean then ran the numbers and found no issue with ampacity. So, that is how I ended up terminating the power to the house buss in the DC power panel. I just don't want Magic34 to end up with all of the work I had to do if there is a simpler solution.
Tom
 
Last edited:
Thanks everyone...

I ran to the DC Panel in the cabin. Going to the breaker in the bilge or batteries would have required punching through sealed holes.

Everything sounds good... Clear, no noise, working properly.

2 things....
1. How do I get from the helm to the cabin panel? Need to get the remote wire through.

2. I ended up using the speaker wire already there. I lost control of the switches for cabin and cockpit speakers and I didn't change anything there.

Ideas?

This is just fine tuning the details now. Everything sounds good.

So appreciative of you all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Magic34 said:
Thanks everyone...

I ran to the DC Panel in the cabin. Going to the breaker in the bilge or batteries would have required punching through sealed holes.

Everything sounds good... Clear, no noise, working properly.

2 things....
1. How do I get from the helm to the cabin panel? Need to get the remote wire through.

2. I ended up using the speaker wire already there. I lost control of the switches for cabin and cockpit speakers and I didn't change anything there.

Ideas?

This is just fine tuning the details now. Everything sounds good.

So appreciative of you all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Hey there! I know this is an old thread, but I am in the same "boat" as you and am replacing all stock audio with new stuff. Got a Fusion head unit, and wetsounds 6.6" in the cockpit. I bought an alpine amp to replace the Clarion in there.
My biggest issue now, is that if I turn up the radio to about 3/4 volume, my AMPS peak at over 20 on the gauge and it QUICKLY drains my batteries. this is of course at idle speed.
If I am running at over 1500 RPMS, that issue goes away since I have all new batteries and new alternator as well.

When you installed your new amp, did you run new power to it from the Positive buss bar behind the power panel and just ground it to the negative thats there as well?

I would hate to have to run my generator each time I do a harbor cruise just to keep my batteries charged.

This whole power drain is really throwing my head for a spin.

Since these new 8.1L Horizon motors all run off a 12v ECM, its critical that i have a good constant 12 volts to them. I already got stranded when it killed my motors and I had to float and recharge with the generator to start back up.
 
sounds like you have something else going on.... i can run my 800 watt kicker amp all day on my 380 DA without issues... either you have a weak/old/bad battery(s), too large of amp (doubt it with a single alpine) or too many other things on that bank.... some of these stereo guru's will have a better idea than me, but running your boat at idle and having some good batteries shouldn't be an issue imo

CaptBobO said:
Hey there! I know this is an old thread, but I am in the same "boat" as you and am replacing all stock audio with new stuff. Got a Fusion head unit, and wetsounds 6.6" in the cockpit. I bought an alpine amp to replace the Clarion in there.
My biggest issue now, is that if I turn up the radio to about 3/4 volume, my AMPS peak at over 20 on the gauge and it QUICKLY drains my batteries. this is of course at idle speed.
If I am running at over 1500 RPMS, that issue goes away since I have all new batteries and new alternator as well.

When you installed your new amp, did you run new power to it from the Positive buss bar behind the power panel and just ground it to the negative thats there as well?

I would hate to have to run my generator each time I do a harbor cruise just to keep my batteries charged.

This whole power drain is really throwing my head for a spin.

Since these new 8.1L Horizon motors all run off a 12v ECM, its critical that i have a good constant 12 volts to them. I already got stranded when it killed my motors and I had to float and recharge with the generator to start back up.
Click to expand...
 
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