1995 450 Sundancer with Cummins

GhrarhG

New Member
Apr 13, 2020
9
Boat Info
30 Sundancer 1988
45 Sundancer 1995
Engines
Twin 5.7L w/Alpha Ones
Cummins 420 Diamonds - TD 5062V gears
Hi All,

I've been lurking on these forums for years and finally registered. I am a current owner of a 1988 30 Sundancer which I've had for the last 10 years, and I'm thinking about moving up. We're starting to outgrow our 30 on boat trips and I came across a 1995 450. I know the production run on these was from 1996 to 1999, so I have to believe that this was a late 95. Maybe that's also why it has Cummins diamond 420s and most other 450s seem to have Cats, either 3116 or 3126.

I've looked at the boat and the interior and mechanicals appear to be in great shape. It seems to be a reasonably well optioned boat, but it needs canvas and a good buffing pretty badly. I've found lots of info about the 3116 and 3126 45s, but nothing on the Cummins. Does anyone have a Cummins boat, and what do I need to look out for? I imagine performance would be similar to the 3126, right?

Also, are there any problem areas on the 45 that I need to be aware of? I've read the entire 450 thread and I understand these hulls are cored, but there aren't any penetration through the core other than the docking lights or maybe some improperly installed through-hulls after construction. It sounds like these hulls are pretty stout and that's my main concern.

I'm looking for any and all feedback that can be provided.

Thanks,

Jon
 
Hi All,

I've been lurking on these forums for years and finally registered. I am a current owner of a 1988 30 Sundancer which I've had for the last 10 years, and I'm thinking about moving up. We're starting to outgrow our 30 on boat trips and I came across a 1995 450. I know the production run on these was from 1996 to 1999, so I have to believe that this was a late 95. Maybe that's also why it has Cummins diamond 420s and most other 450s seem to have Cats, either 3116 or 3126.

I've looked at the boat and the interior and mechanicals appear to be in great shape. It seems to be a reasonably well optioned boat, but it needs canvas and a good buffing pretty badly. I've found lots of info about the 3116 and 3126 45s, but nothing on the Cummins. Does anyone have a Cummins boat, and what do I need to look out for? I imagine performance would be similar to the 3126, right?

Also, are there any problem areas on the 45 that I need to be aware of? I've read the entire 450 thread and I understand these hulls are cored, but there aren't any penetration through the core other than the docking lights or maybe some improperly installed through-hulls after construction. It sounds like these hulls are pretty stout and that's my main concern.

I'm looking for any and all feedback that can be provided.

Thanks,

Jon

Welcome aboard Jon. I highly recommend sponsoring the site, at which point you will be able to access the "Ask the Captains forum and get some solid answers from both frank and Capt. Rusty.
 
I'd be interested in knowing the HIN# on the hull. I'd bet it is a boat actually built in 1995, but built for the 1996 model year.

I'd also be interested in the engines because most 450DA's in the early production years had either left over 3208 Cats or 3116/3126 Cats and a few Volvos.

You are correct on the hull of the 450DA. Sea Ray's customer service folks called this hull "the Ice Breaker Hull" and the only hull warranty claims they experience were a few where docking light allowed water into the core or where a transducer was placed in the wrong location. I've owned a 1996 since 1997 and I'd take my boat anywhere.

With any boat this age, you need to be cautious of "deferred" (neglected) maintenance. Cummins cooling systems are not very robust so you may have seawater pump, after cooler and heat exchanger issue ahead of you.

The 450DA is a great boat.........hope this one works out for you.
 
Hi Frank,

I was hoping to get your thoughts. I understand you're the resident expert on these 450s. I'll get the hull number this weekend; I'm going back up to look at a few things canvas related on Saturday.

The boat is a freshwater boat, and from the look of things in the ER it looks like they were up on their maintenance. Everything is tidy, fuel and oil filters were labeled with hours of the last change, about 20 ago. Hopefully that helps out the aftercooler odds. Is there a better forum for info on the Cummins?

Thanks
 
"Is there a better forum for info on the Cummins?"

boatdiesel.com. It is a pay sight but you will find out all you want about your particular engines.
 
The is a Cummins thread on here as well. I have them and take care of multiple boats with them. They are great engines but I am skeptical the boat you’re speaking of had them originally. The one big failure point is the aftercoolers. Feel free to pm me if you need anything specific.
 
I know it's rare, but I think the engines are original to the boat. Sea Ray's website shows the 420 diamond engines as an option on the 1995 440 Sundancers, so it seems plausible that they could have been optioned on this 1995 45. The pic below shows the nameplate from the engine with a 1995 build date.

mXGihSaAeGxhfOudYuGoRwYQps1vwN5kPGZ0zlKavcNMAIis0h7bAXadUJGHawmio7VOraWX3aDxsQeTvvzsLNwCKK7MFg9YyawuD3KHbg0aoXL9dk3Oirf4OkgxjKIaK9siOqw9St86q5R8MH2TzlBP4V_Ra0w_mr4LpqNR5TrEbK9sIyV5Z9mYpKGnevuaWw3Q-xXKG2MIMYy2kreB3YdNWHJzZ2GX5gAO17-Ix89DXvrZJh1qa2af3VWEXfiRbsmw3OHZAZIhzXL-_l1VS3q2iurpzSMfCYJj1VABnuw4B6HKV0miwehTfXiM9esik9BTIJCZQkVvQp1TQcX12O3C9nD-4f1y_iUPDBdFPQvn0m5P_ZDcfxd1Im26f1UFwuHB5q7ZDobCnFeTWEsw8p6mlOekMzcsBgVPJ8-zxNHqSSf3quE8_8jshEcGITN9B_jqgU5gNMHQ-M98kI9c99FzqvYdbXM-CsJr_eE3u0rBMmOStHnZ4uBLfP2_jbpB4MxWXY1y2PqkYCSI83Uq-W3T0vmiatcu_VybaN0YFlTlxtaA6y_x6jYCrNKJJfwhySngKJT-h2Di8a_Yz5_tcTXGjfUyADfNYeQ0M7gdkJnQWqKBY4xrKH1JxMTWHrPw7qtdGhuaP2uw6RHBvvDG8zcg3-hQv-lPpYp0vyQcPtXHXlwk7mOcwiZ0stDaBBI=w697-h929-no
 
Frank,

Just got back from looking at the boat again today. The hull number is: SERP2745E595
 
That’s a super rare bird with the Cummins. Obviously Frank is a Cat guy but I love the Cummins. Another 450 with cats just listed in Texas btw.
 
I just had the survey today. I'll have the report tomorrow, but the results from the moisture meter show the entire port side, from rub rail to chine is wet. Is this possible?

If it was my boat I would drill some core samples to check, but I that's probably out of the question. The surveyor mentioned that the hammer sounded ok, but again, I'll have more details in the report.

Thoughts?
 
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I don't know much about it. Hopefully it will turn out to be a false positive and it will work out for you. Core samples will show for sure, or "test" holes drilled will determine exact extent. There was a beautiful boat offered for sale near us several years ago that was found to have wet hull sides in the pre-purchase survey. The owner had no idea. The buyer looked into repair and decided to move on. The owner dried it out himself and still had the boat last I knew, but I did lose track of it as I missed a couple of winter storage seasons. (It stored in the same building as mine)
I don't know all the details but checked in on the progress from time to time as he did the work over 2 winters during lay up. One side per winter. It was pretty gut wrenching to watch him drill holes in the side of the boat and see the water pee out for hours. He used vacuum pumps to pull water at first then pull air through while heating the hull sides. The pumps ran continuously throughout most of the winters. He determined the water came from poorly bedded port lights.
So yes, it is possible. But it can be fixed. Pretty pricey to have it done, and didn't look like much fun as a DIY project. Good Luck.

IMG_2615_LI.jpg
 
450DA's are well balanced. With no people onboard and the same amount of fuel in both tanks, she should sit level at th e dock, with no noticeable list to either side. If the entire port side was wet, I think you would see a definite list to port.
 
I also think it’s highly unlikely on the 450 but it’s not impossible. The 450 had almost all the port lights in the deck structure and not the hull. These hulls are well known to be almost bulletproof. If it were me, I would do as Frank says then I would get another opinion as it’s probably too good to just walk away from without knowing.
 
I got the full report from the surveryor, and I'm trying to digest it. Almost all of the readings on port are bad, there are a couple that aren't great, but better, and they're closer to the rub rail.

P4210143.JPG

Then, only a few inches away, the meter is pegged? Is this a possible layup problem during construction that is causing the meter to read it as moisture? There isn't any sort of thru-hull in this area, I don't see how water could have gotten in.

P4210145.JPG


Also, the boat is out of the water in heated storage and has been for the winter. It has had plenty of time to dry. Our next step is sea trial if I proceed further, I'm just not sure what to make of this hull.

The deck actually measured very well. Only a couple mid-range measurements near a hatch, all port lights checked out good and the stanchions were too.

He also picked up moisture from near the exhaust ports on starboard running forward to about midship. Again, measurements near the rub rail were good, and even down near the chine weren't bad. This really has me stumped.
 
Don’t take this the wrong way but those little $150 moisture meters are notoriously inaccurate. They measure density in the item being measured. Wet balsa coring will peg a meter because water increases the density; thick places in the layup cause abnormally high readings as well, as will extra layers of glass mat, resin pooling in convex or concave Areas caused by a radius in the mold.

To complicate things more, your surveyor didn’t find moisture where I would normally expect to see moisture.....near and below the rubrail. ???

I think my next step would be to ask the surveyor his recommendations as to how to proceed. How to dry the hull and most important, the repair absolutely must include identifying the source of water entry into the core.

I have some more thoughts on this but will reserve them until probably Sunday when I will have more time to consider this one.
 
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Are thermal imaging cameras useful in "seeing" water in a boat hull? Seems plausible and they are becoming more common and economical. I have used them in the Fire service for years and you can point them at a half full barrel of liquid and see the liquid level.
 
I see the edge of a vent or something in one of your pictures. If that is a place where there was water intrusion, it will run for several feet both ways from the source. I once repaired a 6 year old 400 Sundancer that had a crack where the lifting strap went through a void in the layup and allowed water to penetrate the balsa in the hull side. We removed a 3'x12' section of the top layer of fiberglass to re-core the area. Looked like wet news paper.
I would not worry about some moisture in a 25 year old boat but if it is pegging even a cheap moisture meter that close to what looks like a vent clamshell and the cheap moisture meter did not find any problems on the other side be cautious.
You said it did pass the percussion test which is good.
 
As far as thermal imaging is concerned, it can be a very useful when done and interpreted by someone with experience. However, but also an expensive service to get done. Thermal imaging analyses are most valuable in determining if the suspect area is moisture or a quirk in the lay up like a hidden bulkhead the surveyor didn't know was there, a concave area in the mold where resin pooled to a heavier than normal thickness.

I am interested in seeing what opinion the surveyor may offer when he is asked his recommendations: buy?; pass?; repair? Further, the surveyor was engaged to advise you in this purchase so it would be fair to ask him how he thinks the water got into the hull coring.

While not really an inconsistency, some of the survey findings posted by the original poster don't agree with the construction of a '95-'99 450DA:

"He also picked up moisture from near the exhaust ports on starboard running forward to about midship." None of the exhaust ports on this boat are below the waterline. There are holes cut in the molded hull and fiberglass tubing is inserted thru and glassed in place then the area exiting the hull are radiuses with cabosil, but none of the holes come thru the hull below the waterline.

I also think, if the boat is still out of the water, a series of small holes drilled in the bottom paint below the boot stripe may tell you a lot. If the hull is indeed saturated, then water will run out of the test holes and you have your answer. Incidentally, this is also how you would go about starting to dry out the hull. After there is no sign of water in the hull, the next step would be to bore larger sample holes in the hull to visually inspect the core. If it is mush, then this just grew to a major repair where the side of the boat is skinned (gelcoat removed) and set aside while the balsa core is removed where it is rotted and replaced. In this process, repairing 50 or so 3/16" holes in the bottom of the hull sides in the bottom paint is easy and cheap because it involves no gelcoat matching or fairing. Repairing a few larger samples holes in a hull side above the water line gets more expensive but isn't "nose-bleed" money. However, when you remove a large section of a hull to access a core problem, then the cost goes up exponentially.

While it is a great looking boat, this is one to be careful with...............



Frank
 
While not really an inconsistency, some of the survey findings posted by the original poster don't agree with the construction of a '95-'99 450DA:

"He also picked up moisture from near the exhaust ports on starboard running forward to about midship." None of the exhaust ports on this boat are below the waterline. There are holes cut in the molded hull and fiberglass tubing is inserted thru and glassed in place then the area exiting the hull are radiuses with cabosil, but none of the holes come thru the hull below the waterline.

That doesn’t actually apply to the entire production of ‘95 450DA’s. They don’t all have the underwater exhaust bypass design. They’re rare, but there are several examples in Michigan and Ohio of 450’s with large waterline exhaust ports - very similar to 500DA’s at the time.

The OP could be looking at such an example.
 

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