44DB Cracked/Bowing Bilge Floor

B

bjurkovski

New Member
May 21, 2007
21
Minnesota
Boat Info
2006 44 Sedan Bridge
Engines
Cummins QSC 500's
Went to get the boat ready for the water this weekend and found a pretty big crack in the bilge and 2-3mm of bowing along the edge of the floor in the bilge between the engines.

Anybody have any idea what could cause this and what's underneath the panel in that section of the bilge.

It appears to be a raised panel with some kind of void underneath and looks to be cosmetic. Did not see any sings of damage on the hull.

IMG_1075.jpeg
Should I be worried and get a surveyor out to asses the damage?

Any ideas would be appreciated... Thanks!
 
If it is the same as my 400 Sedan Bridge it is 1/2" plywood top and sides with foam underneath. It is not structural and was built up to provide a level walkway.
 
It may have been full of water and froze which cracked it. Many of us have cut inspection holes in the floor to vacuum out the water that collects there from a multitude of reasons. There are multiple posts in the 420/44 DB thread on the subject from last fall. That would give one a fright for sure, definitely need to repair but should not affect seaworthiness.
Rusty
 
While that area, itself, is not really structural, something caused that issue. Small cracks in gelcoat are often no big deal, but those cracks are quite large. And since you said it's "bowing"... and you are in Minnesota... the natural assumption is going to be that water had somehow gotten trapped under there and froze over the winter. Between the hull bottom, the stringers and this floor, the floor is the weak link (which is a good thing).

If you're not comfortable with doing this yourself, yes, get an accredited surveyor or experienced fiberglass repairer to check this out. Based solely on what you wrote and that picture, I'd be leaning towards cutting the floor out, removing any foam that would be in there, and figuring out how water got in there. Also paying attention to the limber holes.

On a positive note, again based on that picture, it's a very accessible location and is actually a relatively easy job - both in the destruction and re-construction. Once that cavity is opened up, it should be pretty simple to figure out what's going on and what the culprit is.

Now, because I'm not overly familiar with your model, what I can't say is whether that area is sealed from other areas, or if it drains (supposed to, anyways) to another spot. Maybe someone with more knowledge on that can help. I don't want to make an assumption one way or the other.
 
Will be following to see what you find. My guess is as stated above regarding water getting trapped and then freezing.
 
bjurkovski said:
Went to get the boat ready for the water this weekend and found a pretty big crack in the bilge and 2-3mm of bowing along the edge of the floor in the bilge between the engines.

Anybody have any idea what could cause this and what's underneath the panel in that section of the bilge.

It appears to be a raised panel with some kind of void underneath and looks to be cosmetic. Did not see any sings of damage on the hull.

View attachment 82753 Should I be worried and get a surveyor out to asses the damage?

Any ideas would be appreciated... Thanks!
Click to expand...

I might be able to offer some ideas. As Pierpressure noted, that area is not structural, but rather a raised subfloor made of plywood. The problem is, there is a hollow void inside that somehow has the ability to accumulate water. I cut an inspection hole, and a few others have followed suit, and we have all found water.

You can read more about it at this post:
http://clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/420-44-db-owners-club.39333/page-81#post-1089793

Now, at the location your picture shows the heave and crack, the walkway widens and there is a vertical support (P099). Here is the drawing of that structure (inverted):
upload_2020-4-20_11-24-13.png


What I have found is that vertical support (P099) does not actually go all the way to the hull. Here is a picture from the aft of the subfloor, taken near P103 and looking forward:

upload_2020-4-20_11-26-42.png


The end you see is the internal bulkhead (P098). If you look carefully, you can see a water line on it (more obvious on the full-res image). On the other side is the start of the vertical support. This bulkhead doesn't reach the hull. It was possible to run a tape measure all the way past it to the end where the forward bilge starts (where the main seawater strainers are). Water also has the run of this area.

So, if there were water in that area at the right level and it froze (I see you are in Minnesota), it could push up the vertical support and/or internal bulkhead.

Not a great scenario, but not catastrophic either.

A future possible project I am considering is removing that structure completely, gelcoating the hull floor, and installing raised, removable panels. Perhaps grates or diamond plate. It's a low on the list project...
 
Last edited:
If there's no foam then there would have to be a heck of a lot of water in there to cause freeze damage.

I guess I'll have to cut it open and replace that plywood. I'm surprise there are no drains forward and aft of this void into the bilge pump area's to keep it dry.

Thanks!

Brent
 
bjurkovski said:
If there's no foam then there would have to be a heck of a lot of water in there to cause freeze damage.

I guess I'll have to cut it open and replace that plywood. I'm surprise there are no drains forward and aft of this void into the bilge pump area's to keep it dry.

Thanks!

Brent
Click to expand...

This void seems like a bad idea for sure. There was a lot of water when I checked it. Considering the structure though (see my previous post), it's possible a low level of water could cause damage.
 
bajturner said:
I might be able to offer some ideas. As Pierpressure noted, that area is not structural, but rather a raised subfloor made of plywood. The problem is, there is a hollow void inside that somehow has the ability to accumulate water. I cut an inspection hole, and a few others have followed suit, and we have all found water.

You can read more about it at this post:
http://clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/420-44-db-owners-club.39333/page-81#post-1089793

Now, at the location your picture shows the heave and crack, the walkway widens and there is a vertical support (P099). Here is the drawing of that structure (inverted):
View attachment 82767

What I have found is that vertical support (P099) does not actually go all the way to the hull. Here is a picture from the aft of the subfloor, taken near P103 and looking forward:

View attachment 82768

The end you see is the internal bulkhead (P098). If you look carefully, you can see a water line on it (more obvious on the full-res image). On the other side is the start of the vertical support. This bulkhead doesn't reach the hull. It was possible to run a tape measure all the way past it to the end where the forward bilge starts (where the main seawater strainers are). Water also has the run of this area.

So, if there were water in that area at the right level, if it froze (I see you are in Minnesota), it could push up the vertical support and/or internal bulkhead.

Not a great scenario, but not catastrophic either.

A future possible project I am considering is removing that structure completely, gelcoating the hull floor, and installing raised, removable panels. Perhaps grates or diamond plate. It's a low on the list project...
Click to expand...



I found a topside view of your diagram in the manual which seems to illustrate a latch like your's. Was this section originally designed with a removable panel (P096)?
 
bjurkovski said:
I found a topside view of your diagram in the manual which seems to illustrate a latch like your's. Was this section originally designed with a removable panel (P096)?
Click to expand...

No, not removable. I believe what looks like a latch is just a notch to position the support while being glassed-in. Here is another snip from a drawing:

upload_2020-4-20_11-49-11.png
 
bjurkovski said:
I found a topside view of your diagram in the manual which seems to illustrate a latch like your's. Was this section originally designed with a removable panel (P096)?
Click to expand...

If you are going to repair this, removable is a good idea. You could possibly leave the "walls" of this structure, remove the top and properly finish the cut edges, add some transverse supports (stainless steel maybe?), and have some removable panels made.

This would retain the forward and aft bilge areas and side channels. I think then you could do away with the internal bulkhead and support (P098 and P099).

Would be a nice upgrade!
 
Thanks for all your help.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to put this information together for me.

I will definitely post pictures of what I find and the repair process in case someone else runs into this issue. At least I can do the repair in the water. My wife would kill me if we were unable to launch on time.

Thanks!

Brent
 
Those are fantastic, helpful links and pictures guys!

I like the idea of a removable floor in this area. And this can actually be done quite simply with the removable panel being stout enough (whatever material you choose... even making a fiberglass hatch) to fully span/support the width. A lightweight, homemade panel (or panels) could be made with fiberglass and foamboard insulation from HD or Lowes. Really, there's any number of ways that this can be done.

However, the panel wouldn't necessarily need to span the entire width of that area. The area where you are standing looks like the floor area (minus the water gutter) is about 18". You really only need to cut an opening 12" wide for good access to the area, leaving a 3" lip around the edge for extra support. You could still make the panel fit from edge to edge for aesthetics and to keep it nicely in place, but the removable panel doesn't have to be abnormally strong. Heck, glass/foamboard/glass panel can easily span a 24" opening and be PLENTY strong to stand on. Lightweight reinforcement can even be added to the underside of this panel to make it even stronger.

Also, you wouldn't one big panel - multiple panels would be actually be better. This would end up being a pretty easy project (and quite beneficial after hearing/seeing what the others have posted) for anyone with basic woodworking skills.

Just a quick visual to get your thought process going... this is a hatch from when I rebuilt the cockpit of my Grady. It's roughly 2'x4' and the core is that foamboard insulation I mentioned. It was actually an experiment to see if this stuff would actually work as I had never heard of it being used before. But I figured it wouldn't take me long to redo it if I had to. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, now.

IMG-4077.jpg


IMG_4243.jpg


IMG-3923.jpg
 
Now the question....where does the water come from?

When my boat was surveyed in late July of 2017, there was water in the stringer next to the one in question here....the one to the starboard side under the steps and washer/dryer. I cut a 6" hole with the appropriate inspection plate. Vacuumed it all out and determined it was fresh water....boat had previously been in SW. Before long, it was back. To make a long story short, the FW fittings on a lot of SRs of this era are notorious for dripping/leaking. I found the connections to my MSR shower valve dripping. Since, I have changed out 80% of the female fittings and clamps and appear to have stopped the water intrusion. TTmott did the same on his boat.

This is one place I know it comes from....perhaps there are others....

Bennett
 
bbwhitejr said:
Now the question....where does the water come from?

When my boat was surveyed in late July of 2017, there was water in the stringer next to the one in question here....the one to the starboard side under the steps and washer/dryer. I cut a 6" hole with the appropriate inspection plate. Vacuumed it all out and determined it was fresh water....boat had previously been in SW. Before long, it was back. To make a long story short, the FW fittings on a lot of SRs of this era are notorious for dripping/leaking. I found the connections to my MSR shower valve dripping. Since, I have changed out 80% of the female fittings and clamps and appear to have stopped the water intrusion. TTmott did the same on his boat.

This is one place I know it comes from....perhaps there are others....

Bennett
Click to expand...
Fresh water systems in the Sea Rays leave a little to be desired. My bilge can go months being bone dry while being in the water 100% of the time. But once or twice I left the the city water turned on (I know that is a big no no.) and water had accumulated in the bilge! Tracking down those small fresh water leaks can be a pain.
 
bbwhitejr said:
Now the question....where does the water come from?
Click to expand...
Definitely the burning question. I am two years into a quest to have a completely dry bilge, except when I know the source of the water. I have fixed quite a few FW leaks, mostly in the engine room around the hot water tank. A dripping salon air conditioner condenser drain was a tricky find too.

bbwhitejr said:
When my boat was surveyed in late July of 2017, there was water in the stringer next to the one in question here....the one to the starboard side under the steps and washer/dryer. I cut a 6" hole with the appropriate inspection plate.
Click to expand...
Can you share a little more about this...where the water was exactly and where you put the inspection hole?

I have been wondering if there is space along the stringers, behind the fiberglass. After doing a thorough cleaning of the engine room and drying everything off, water seems to appear out of nowhere later...sometimes around the limber holes in the stringers.
 
bajturner said:
Definitely the burning question. I am two years into a quest to have a completely dry bilge, except when I know the source of the water. I have fixed quite a few FW leaks, mostly in the engine room around the hot water tank. A dripping salon air conditioner condenser drain was a tricky find too.


Can you share a little more about this...where the water was exactly and where you put the inspection hole?

I have been wondering if there is space along the stringers, behind the fiberglass. After doing a thorough cleaning of the engine room and drying everything off, water seems to appear out of nowhere later...sometimes around the limber holes in the stringers.
Click to expand...

I have the same expereince from time to time. Two weeks ago, I taped my water hose to the end of a 24' pole to wash the pollen off of the tops and arch. Next day, the bay under the port engine has 2-3 gallons of water in it...

Anyway, here is where the said inspection port was placed....just to the starboard side of the forward bilge....

Insp Plate.jpg


Bennett
 
Are you guys putting the inspection hole on top on the horizontal surface? It would seem you don't even need an inspection hole. I haven't looked at the structure yet to assess how i will go about the fix, but it would seem i could simply drill a smaller hole on the lowest point on the P103 vertical surface and any water that accumulates would drain back to the aft bilge pumps. That way there is no need to inspect and continue to vacuum it out. I would want to marintex the hole edges to protect the now exposed plywood. Any issues with tackling this problem this way in your guys opinions?
 
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