The "virus" What are your thoughts

Boat Guy said:
@DWABoat - It's multifaceted...First, we had the advantage of time and squandered it. We had many people who are decision makers downplaying it and showing incompetence by their inaction. Further, it seems to me the inaction was likely due to not wanting to pay for it.

But, mainly the comparison I'm making is at the care level and the PPE of our clinicians. We had similar failures during the Ebola scare and apparently learned nothing. My observations are anecdotal and based on reports and observations and clinicians confiding in me. But, when we have a system where our clinicians are told to treat patients with C-19 and they are not given masks or tyvek gear, I find it abysmal.

We now have manufacturers ramping up production of PPE and vents, but why did it take so long? People will die because of the delay.

The goal has to be to stay ahead of the curve. I hope we can do it before we have to make decisions as to who gets access to medical equipment, etc. I understand there is a discussion now in the hospital community about mandatory DNR orders because the staff can't be protected.

I find it abysmal because we could have done better.

In regards to the lock downs, hands down a totalitarian regime has a huge advantage implementing a policy like this. Further, our cultural and behavioral differences are dramatically different.

At this point, I hope we get accurate data so that we can assess the situation and stay ahead of the curve.

I think yesterday was impactful for some because we surpassed all other nations for confirmed cases. To me, it was obviously going to happen. If I was to guess, I think we will double the cases in the next week and we will have to see how certain areas hold up.

Lastly, I'm on record here explaining the importance of masks in the general population. If we had production and inventory I'm fairly certain the guidance would be to wear at all times while in populated areas. The only countries not providing this guidance are the ones without the supplies.
Click to expand...

Anecdotal - Yes, we are at our best as armchair quarterbacks; but I say this in complete respect as you appear to have insight more than many. A couple of thing for consideration however:
  • From the federal level and even the municipality level (in the case of NY), government is too big to be agile and simply cannot reflex timely; we must admit however they have been pulling out the stops and getting things done most recently. With that said, the authors and promoters of the unrelated earmarks in the recovery bill should be burned at the stake; your opportunity comes in November.
  • We have no clue how China actually responded and how they are managing their related issues; if one believes our Press de facto, they are then grossly ignorant. Hmmm, I must say then we are therefore ignorant as all of our press is corrupt.
  • From a medical supply aspect, almost everything has a shelf life even particulate masks and it's not years. So expecting instantaneous "production and supply" implies excess manufacturing capability and stockpiling to an unprecedented quantity with massive continuous stock rotation which simply isn't in the DNA of society no matter the politics. The nuclear fallout shelters in the 60's (if you are old enough to remember) are a good example.
  • This virus is transmitted not uniquely through human bodily fluids but pandemically, malady can transmit through a variety of means - bird droppings, drinking water, airborne, etc. How would we have "done better" with this in mind?
  • Unfortunately, our political atmosphere and the behavior of our elected representatives inhibited a unified collective early on to get more in front of the issue; this may be the real lesson to be learned.
 
Last edited:
Here is an excellent timeline showing how the FDA's bureaucracy screwed the pooch on testing. Government red tape delayed widespread testing of the coronavirus by six weeks. It would be comical if it wasn't so damn serious.

https://thedispatch.com/p/timeline-the-regulationsand-regulatorsthat

Sadly, we can all see the government functionary saying in one breath "You must complete an EUA before you can develop your test kit", and in the next saying "No, you can't have the virus samples required for the completion of the EUA".
 
Boat Guy said:
@DWABoat - It's multifaceted...First, we had the advantage of time and squandered it. We had many people who are decision makers downplaying it and showing incompetence by their inaction. Further, it seems to me the inaction was likely due to not wanting to pay for it.

But, mainly the comparison I'm making is at the care level and the PPE of our clinicians. We had similar failures during the Ebola scare and apparently learned nothing. My observations are anecdotal and based on reports and observations and clinicians confiding in me. But, when we have a system where our clinicians are told to treat patients with C-19 and they are not given masks or tyvek gear, I find it abysmal.

We now have manufacturers ramping up production of PPE and vents, but why did it take so long? People will die because of the delay.

The goal has to be to stay ahead of the curve. I hope we can do it before we have to make decisions as to who gets access to medical equipment, etc. I understand there is a discussion now in the hospital community about mandatory DNR orders because the staff can't be protected.

I find it abysmal because we could have done better.

In regards to the lock downs, hands down a totalitarian regime has a huge advantage implementing a policy like this. Further, our cultural and behavioral differences are dramatically different.

At this point, I hope we get accurate data so that we can assess the situation and stay ahead of the curve.

I think yesterday was impactful for some because we surpassed all other nations for confirmed cases. To me, it was obviously going to happen. If I was to guess, I think we will double the cases in the next week and we will have to see how certain areas hold up.

Lastly, I'm on record here explaining the importance of masks in the general population. If we had production and inventory I'm fairly certain the guidance would be to wear at all times while in populated areas. The only countries not providing this guidance are the ones without the supplies.
Click to expand...

Boat Guy,
Wow. That was much more informative and interesting discourse than El Capitan’s answer. I can’t say I agree with everything you said, but it certainly is food for thought.

I especially think our governmental leaders were in a bind early in this endeavor. As a libertarian-leaning conservative, I have nearly no faith in any of our elected leaders, however, I have complete faith that this is country where I want to be during any crisis due to our system of corporate inspiration, ambition, our sense of individualism and confidence.

As Americans, our culture is to never back down from a threat. We do not run and hide (21 years armed forces here). If a government leader told me in January to hide in my closet because some bug was kicking China’s ass, I would have scoffed. Now, if that same bug is kicking New York’s ass, I will hide my family in the closet then go look for something with an ass to kick - pretty much what we are doing now. In this case, our front liners are Nurses, EMTs, doctors, NPs, PAs, Lab Techs, and public safety first responders who must keep going face-to-face with the public.

Thank you for your interesting answer. I think you should back off on the “abysmal” stance and maybe re-evaluate to “needs-improvement” stance.
 
Flash back to 1957. Vaccine created in months. Interesting story.

"When the new flu strain hit the United States in September, just as Hilleman had predicted it would, the country was ready with a vaccine. The virus, dubbed the “Asian flu,” killed an estimated 70,000 Americans and one to four million people worldwide, but experts suggest it would have killed many more if not for the vaccine." https://www.history.com/news/1957-flu-pandemic-vaccine-hilleman

Though as the story points out, creating a flu vaccine is far different from creating a vaccine for an entirely new virus, this is still an inspiring story.
 
You're right, it's just my opinion...

I think I'll stay with "abysmal"and perhaps over a cocktail at a beach bar I can go into further detail. Typing on an internet forum is limiting to say the least.

I want to emphasize something. I believe I'm on record here already, but perhaps lost in the flood of posts. I support the Pres...I don't always agree with him, nor do I care for his delivery of message. My condemnation has little to do with this specific admin cycle and more to do with our general behavior.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, and when the dust settles you can all tell me how wrong I am and how the facts don't bore out my "abysmal" definition...

Keep in mind, I have no skin in the game other than to call balls and strikes.

My condemnation has levels and starts with hospital administrators and their lack of prep for staff. Next are the States and their DOH and their lack of prep...Lastly, is the FDA / HHS /CDC debacle.

I think most would describe me as fiscally conservative libertarian leaning and I was well ahead of needing assistance from any person or gov't, but that doesn't mean I can't call it like I see it.

These days bring back memories of when my ex would come home from HHS with a policy issue or something being proposed and I would voice my opposition and recommendations to her and a few days later I'd find out my conversation with her changed policy. I would think how crazy it was that w/o that conversation the decision would likely have stood. I couldn't believe the influence from simple conversations. It actually scared me a bit. I learned how important it is to be close to power and influence it. Further, how non-street smart these Gov't employees were...Excellent data pushers with PhDs and Masters....I wish I was more surprised they didn't have a good pandemic plan for testing.

Now, I 'll answer a couple of points.

The actions and inactions clearly show that our Gov'ts from the municipality, state, fed level are reactionary and not proactive...They simply wait until they've screwed up and scramble to fix their mess and then want to have a press conference on how great they fixed it.

Agencies are just people and they very well could have made their purchases earlier to help get ahead of the curve. I don't buy the agility argument. I've seen them act swift when they finally act.

I think China's actions are fairly well documented even with their gov't trying to create a narrative. But believe what you want to believe. The truth will likely come out in the end. I'm not saying they didn't lie, I'm saying the measures they took and the protection they provided their people were monumental.

N95s have a shelf life? Ok....Perhaps....But I'll take a 20 y/o N95 over a sewn piece of cloth some people are making for clinicians. That's just my IH training from Hopkins and Harvard talking... I guess you can make an argument and data out of anything but in wartime in a foxhole I bet a 20 y/o N95 would save a lot of lives. I don't buy it and call it a BS argument for not stocking. Further, even if it was true that the fibers degraded over time, we could have simply implemented a staggered use program where they would be restocked.

There has been no evidence other than contact and human to human transmission and studies where masks have been worn vs where they have not have conclusively determined they help protect against the spread.

All they had to do really was get ramped up on N95s for clinicians and surgical masks for all citizens and ramp up production of ventilators. It really wouldn't have been that hard. We are not trying to stop the virus, we are trying to flatten the curve...

Now everyone is scrambling and pointing fingers...NY is the new hot-zone...Where next? LA? NO? Miami? Our States are just like all the smaller countries dealing with it individually. We will just have to see if the system can stay ahead of it.

Def. sticking with "abysmal"....Esp. when the Pres. and other officials are pleading with companies to give up our PPE to clinicians when we prepared accordingly and they did not....Not a chance in hell I'm putting my employees at risk and that should have been the mindset of the hospital administrators.

Wasn't there a nursery rhyme about this? Three little pigs or something about making the bread?
 
Boat Guy said:
You're right, it's just my opinion...

I think I'll stay with "abysmal"and perhaps over a cocktail at a beach bar I can go into further detail. Typing on an internet forum is limiting to say the least.

I want to emphasize something. I believe I'm on record here already, but perhaps lost in the flood of posts. I support the Pres...I don't always agree with him, nor do I care for his delivery of message. My condemnation has little to do with this specific admin cycle and more to do with our general behavior.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, and when the dust settles you can all tell me how wrong I am and how the facts don't bore out my "abysmal" definition...

Keep in mind, I have no skin in the game other than to call balls and strikes.

My condemnation has levels and starts with hospital administrators and their lack of prep for staff. Next are the States and their DOH and their lack of prep...Lastly, is the FDA / HHS /CDC debacle.

I think most would describe me as fiscally conservative libertarian leaning and I was well ahead of needing assistance from any person or gov't, but that doesn't mean I can't call it like I see it.

These days bring back memories of when my ex would come home from HHS with a policy issue or something being proposed and I would voice my opposition and recommendations to her and a few days later I'd find out my conversation with her changed policy. I would think how crazy it was that w/o that conversation the decision would likely have stood. I couldn't believe the influence from simple conversations. It actually scared me a bit. I learned how important it is to be close to power and influence it. Further, how non-street smart these Gov't employees were...Excellent data pushers with PhDs and Masters....I wish I was more surprised they didn't have a good pandemic plan for testing.

Now, I 'll answer a couple of points.

The actions and inactions clearly show that our Gov'ts from the municipality, state, fed level are reactionary and not proactive...They simply wait until they've screwed up and scramble to fix their mess and then want to have a press conference on how great they fixed it.

Agencies are just people and they very well could have made their purchases earlier to help get ahead of the curve. I don't buy the agility argument. I've seen them act swift when they finally act.

I think China's actions are fairly well documented even with their gov't trying to create a narrative. But believe what you want to believe. The truth will likely come out in the end. I'm not saying they didn't lie, I'm saying the measures they took and the protection they provided their people were monumental.

N95s have a shelf life? Ok....Perhaps....But I'll take a 20 y/o N95 over a sewn piece of cloth some people are making for clinicians. That's just my IH training from Hopkins and Harvard talking... I guess you can make an argument and data out of anything but in wartime in a foxhole I bet a 20 y/o N95 would save a lot of lives. I don't buy it and call it a BS argument for not stocking. Further, even if it was true that the fibers degraded over time, we could have simply implemented a staggered use program where they would be restocked.

There has been no evidence other than contact and human to human transmission and studies where masks have been worn vs where they have not have conclusively determined they help protect against the spread.

All they had to do really was get ramped up on N95s for clinicians and surgical masks for all citizens and ramp up production of ventilators. It really wouldn't have been that hard. We are not trying to stop the virus, we are trying to flatten the curve...

Now everyone is scrambling and pointing fingers...NY is the new hot-zone...Where next? LA? NO? Miami? Our States are just like all the smaller countries dealing with it individually. We will just have to see if the system can stay ahead of it.

Def. sticking with "abysmal"....Esp. when the Pres. and other officials are pleading with companies to give up our PPE to clinicians when we prepared accordingly and they did not....Not a chance in hell I'm putting my employees at risk and that should have been the mindset of the hospital administrators.

Wasn't there a nursery rhyme about this? Three little pigs or something about making the bread?
Click to expand...

Ok. I’m with you. Abysmal.

However, I still stand up and, if necessary, die for my country. It’s the best one, period. I feel we had the best person available at the helm (Trump), but he still has to move the Titanic.

After 911, we all witnessed the governmental transformation to focus on anti/counterterrorism. We were experiencing terrorism before with the USS Cole, embassies, World Trade I, Oklahoma City, and others. It wasn’t until 911 that DHS was formed and intense focus was placed on WMD measures.

I have a feeling we will be making efforts to deal with future pandemics.

I wonder what would have happened if the President had publicly announced back in early January that any private corporation which develops a vaccine or any drug to defeat this strange virus coming out of China would be awarded a permanent patent for all revenues into perpetuity plus guaranteed government contracts for enough dosages for every American. The potential financial rewards would be unlimited. Now that is incentive.
 
DWABoat said:
I wonder what would have happened if the President had publicly announced back in early January that any private corporation which develops a vaccine or any drug to defeat this strange virus coming out of China would be awarded a permanent patent for all revenues into perpetuity plus guaranteed government contracts for enough dosages for every American. The potential financial rewards would be unlimited. Now that is incentive.
Click to expand...

Problem with that is on Jan 14, the WHO published a bogus report that the virus wasn't contagious human to human.
 
Great job boys !!! Back on track, now this has become a intellectual conversation I look forward to reading
 
Same here. We can have an intelligent conversation about a very important topic if we can all agree that we don't have to have the same opinion.

Carry on.
 
The Bill Collector said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/27/...7LPNnVnBDZDsZ3Zcm9OqOJ9eclnEdQeswTZZZP9zLbqAs

An article that caught my attention... Since I'm in the Seattle area.
Click to expand...

Okay. It is The NY Times. I tried. I quit reading when they start calling our President childish names. So, can we get back to intellectual discussion?

I have found this thread very useful in obtaining important information from around the country. You guys are spread out and informed. I am in south Louisiana, about 40 miles from New Orleans. Needless to say, I am keenly interested in a proper response. I am not at all interested in calling our President a “career con-man” or other useless insults.

What I learn from this event will shape my policy and preparedness expectations of my government in the future. I appreciate the various points-of-view.
 
DWABoat said:
Okay. It is The NY Times. I tried. I quit reading when they start calling our President childish names. So, can we get back to intellectual discussion?
Click to expand...

While I 100% agree on the point you are making, I find it very hypocritical for you to be put off by someone calling Trump childish names. He himself is the KING of using childish names referencing others. Its much more offensive for the POTUS to be doing that than a reporter.

Back to the regularly scheduled program.
 
Third Edition said:
Flash back to 1957. Vaccine created in months. Interesting story.

"When the new flu strain hit the United States in September, just as Hilleman had predicted it would, the country was ready with a vaccine. The virus, dubbed the “Asian flu,” killed an estimated 70,000 Americans and one to four million people worldwide, but experts suggest it would have killed many more if not for the vaccine." https://www.history.com/news/1957-flu-pandemic-vaccine-hilleman

Though as the story points out, creating a flu vaccine is far different from creating a vaccine for an entirely new virus, this is still an inspiring story.
Click to expand...

COVID-19 is not a flu it is a virus that is found in animals that is spread from animal to animal. But this strain jumped from animal to human and had mutated to jump from human to human and we can give it to our pets. Finding a vaccine to slow this down is far different then creating a flu vaccine.

This link is where you should look for answers about COVID-19

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses
 
Last edited:
Iprof said:
COVID-19 is not a flu it is a virus that is found in animals that is spread from animal to animal. But this strain jumped from animal to human and had mutated to jump from human to human and we can give it to our pets. Finding a vaccine to slow this down is far different then creating a flu vaccine.

This link is where you should look for answers about COVID-19

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses
Click to expand...

Thank you for correcting me so graciously. It is important that you did so.

I thought I took care of it when writing: "Though as the story points out, creating a flu vaccine is far different from creating a vaccine for an entirely new virus, this is still an inspiring story." But I guess what I wrote lacked clarity.
 
My daughters shift today they had to bring the iPad out. The hospital doesn’t allow any visitors.... so if you are about to pass on from this virus they bring you an iPad so you can FaceTime your family and say goodbye to them
It doesn’t get worse than that...families going thru hell...but so do the doctors, nurses and techs

Let’s hope this disaster gets under control quickly
 
POTUS finally invoked the defense production act...….That's great but should have been done a few weeks ago. Stay safe out there everyone
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
113,160
Messages
1,427,434
Members
61,067
Latest member
RoseyNerd
Back
Top