Diesel Guys- How much time does it take you or your mechanic to.....

So, here is the backstory...and, the reason I asked....

[Part of the Email I wrote in response to receiving an invoice Dec. 1 for work done June 8th - slightly modified for context]


"xxxx is a nice guy and seemed to be competent. I don’t doubt his skills. Unfortunately, some things didn’t go as planned.

Remember, I hired you guys because I needed to reroute the fuel line in the way of replacing the starboard impeller. I added the oil change and impeller change to make it worth your time to do the job.

Well, the portable oil pump that he brought he mentioned was on it’s last legs. It had a difficult time getting the oil out and I’d say there was likely a fair amount of oil still in the pan that it just couldn’t pump out…But, that wasn’t a big issue I felt as you guys are the pros.

But, when he didn’t have a socket wrench to take off the impeller, nor the bolt to back it out (he had to use mine)…I started to get concerned. What should have been a quick job took forever…Esp. because he dropped a tool under the engine and took a fair amount of time retrieving it.
I know all this because I was there to help. Further, if I wasn’t, he wouldn’t have had been able to use my bolt to back out the impeller.

The worst part was when he told me to fire up the starboard engine and he was outside the boat on the dock and didn’t see water coming out. He told me to let it run for a bit as he was watching it. Then he told me to rev the engine up to 1000 rpm…I was watching him the entire time from the helm for a signal to shut it down…finally after about a min., I shut it down. He went down to investigate and found he had left the seacock closed. Now, I had previously asked if the seacock was reopened and he confirmed it was open. He had re-closed it when he saw water dripping from the water pump plate to tighten. Further, I asked was he sure he was ready to start up and he said yes.

Now, after he caught the seacock issue, we fired the engine back up and water came out the side of the boat. I didn’t want to make an issue out of the event because I figured it was something to discuss with you and get your thoughts. I know when I had an issue with no water flow for my genie impeller for about the same length of time I damaged the impeller. Now Phil didn’t suggest reinspecting, nor taking responsibility, which I wasn’t thrilled about. I mean how do I know if it cracked, etc? Further, since nothing was done to extend the fuel line it’s still in the way of the impeller. So it’s difficult for me to investigate.

Lastly, when he was ready to leave and he was collecting his tools, the blanket he used to keep the area clean actually stained the vinyl seating. We were both surprised. It just seemed like what could go wrong, would go wrong. Clearly he made an effort to keep the boat clean by bringing a blanket. Yet the blanket ended up staining the seats. He mentioned that it was a new blanket and that was likely the issue. Yet there was a purple stain. After me spending multiple times trying to remove the stain, it is mostly gone, but it was a lot of my time.

I guess that many people people would have been more upset about the events. It’s just not my nature to get too worked up over mistakes."

When I didn't receive a bill I figured you were to embarrassed to send it.
[END]

This is the initial response to my email :

"So, you are refusing to pay any of this bill?"

....Now, after a few emails back and forth, he thinks I just want to stiff him.

I was billed 7 hours to do oil change with filters on both engines, and stbd. only impeller change. I don't want to stiff him, I'm simply trying to workout what is fair since he didn't make any gesture or suggestion.
 
What he tried to accomplish was a 2-4 hour job. Since you will never use him again, if it were me I'd cut him a check for four hours and never call him again. Just another boating learning experience.
 
... Since you will never use him again....

You see, that's the thing... I really didn't take this as a terrible experience. It just seemed like what could go wrong, did go wrong. He seemed knowledgeable and these were mistakes. I have no issue with mistakes, but I shouldn't have to pay for them...I was very taken aback when no consideration was offered.

I think the owner didn't explain clearly enough to his "second" what was expected.

Honestly, I wouldn't hesitate to have them come back as I think they are both competent, if they took ownership of their mistakes.
 
Wonder if the bill would have been different if the job was still fresh in his mind. 6 Months later he's probably just tallying up what was accomplished and probably a start and end time.
 
@Irie308 , It wasn't him that came out. It's a two man shop. Owner, who billed me and his right hand man...Apparently they didn't discuss it. I agree that it would have been a lot clearer in everyone's mind if they reached out either with a date to do the lines or an invoice, timely.

He sent me an email :
"xxxx never mentioned any issues with the job besides it was difficult to do. He never mentioned the stain on the cushion, or the intake valve was left closed. "

My response was, "Respectfully, what make it difficult? There is nothing difficult about this job other than the issues I mentioned. The bilge is roomy and access is great. The engines are simple mechanical engines"
 
So, here is the backstory...and, the reason I asked....

[Part of the Email I wrote in response to receiving an invoice Dec. 1 for work done June 8th - slightly modified for context]


"xxxx is a nice guy and seemed to be competent. I don’t doubt his skills. Unfortunately, some things didn’t go as planned.

Remember, I hired you guys because I needed to reroute the fuel line in the way of replacing the starboard impeller. I added the oil change and impeller change to make it worth your time to do the job.

Well, the portable oil pump that he brought he mentioned was on it’s last legs. It had a difficult time getting the oil out and I’d say there was likely a fair amount of oil still in the pan that it just couldn’t pump out…But, that wasn’t a big issue I felt as you guys are the pros.

But, when he didn’t have a socket wrench to take off the impeller, nor the bolt to back it out (he had to use mine)…I started to get concerned. What should have been a quick job took forever…Esp. because he dropped a tool under the engine and took a fair amount of time retrieving it.
I know all this because I was there to help. Further, if I wasn’t, he wouldn’t have had been able to use my bolt to back out the impeller.

The worst part was when he told me to fire up the starboard engine and he was outside the boat on the dock and didn’t see water coming out. He told me to let it run for a bit as he was watching it. Then he told me to rev the engine up to 1000 rpm…I was watching him the entire time from the helm for a signal to shut it down…finally after about a min., I shut it down. He went down to investigate and found he had left the seacock closed. Now, I had previously asked if the seacock was reopened and he confirmed it was open. He had re-closed it when he saw water dripping from the water pump plate to tighten. Further, I asked was he sure he was ready to start up and he said yes.

Now, after he caught the seacock issue, we fired the engine back up and water came out the side of the boat. I didn’t want to make an issue out of the event because I figured it was something to discuss with you and get your thoughts. I know when I had an issue with no water flow for my genie impeller for about the same length of time I damaged the impeller. Now Phil didn’t suggest reinspecting, nor taking responsibility, which I wasn’t thrilled about. I mean how do I know if it cracked, etc? Further, since nothing was done to extend the fuel line it’s still in the way of the impeller. So it’s difficult for me to investigate.

Lastly, when he was ready to leave and he was collecting his tools, the blanket he used to keep the area clean actually stained the vinyl seating. We were both surprised. It just seemed like what could go wrong, would go wrong. Clearly he made an effort to keep the boat clean by bringing a blanket. Yet the blanket ended up staining the seats. He mentioned that it was a new blanket and that was likely the issue. Yet there was a purple stain. After me spending multiple times trying to remove the stain, it is mostly gone, but it was a lot of my time.

I guess that many people people would have been more upset about the events. It’s just not my nature to get too worked up over mistakes."

When I didn't receive a bill I figured you were to embarrassed to send it.
[END]

This is the initial response to my email :

"So, you are refusing to pay any of this bill?"

....Now, after a few emails back and forth, he thinks I just want to stiff him.

I was billed 7 hours to do oil change with filters on both engines, and stbd. only impeller change. I don't want to stiff him, I'm simply trying to workout what is fair since he didn't make any gesture or suggestion.


I would be in contact with the owner and explain in detail the issues with service call and find a compromise. As a debt collector, I get these kind of accounts referred to my office on a weekly basis. My personal experience was with the CAT dealer here the PNW, NC Machinery, I called scheduled service and was quoted travel time and job estimate... When I received the bill for an extra $300 I made a very civil phone call and they reduced the bill immediately...
 
If your close to the shop I would go in person. Always better to get it resolved face to face, or at least get on the phone .
Through email you both will stand your ground and it will just be a pissing match of words and a he said she said type of thing.

I would explain that you feel the job took at least 1.5 hr more for lack of preparedness on the service tech behalf and that you feel the job could of been done in a lesser time and also you had personal time to clean up after he was gone.

Just sending them a check lees the amount that you think it should be will bite you in the ass at some point down the line when you really are going to need this shop to get work done.

Everything you had serviced is a very straight forward job and they know the pit falls of any time and they should of been up front on that.

The starboard motor impeller is a mother to do and on my best day .. clear head.. every tool at close reach... someone at the helm to bump the motor to get the key way in the right place... it either goes ok or can take a extra 30 to 40 min just to get the damn thing in.

I think one of the key factors is the time line of you getting the bill and then having the conversation about it. After I hire any professional tech to do service I follow up that day and before the tech leaves the boat on what the invoice will be. I think if you and them would of had the conversation right then the time would of been lowered to what you felt it should be.
 
Found this in another thread today... I think this has turned it into only a one crown and water job!
Thanks Jaybeaux[/MEDIA]
I don't think coming up with ways to drink less on a boat while spending time in the bilge should be applauded ... I am not thanking Jaybeaux :)
 
Found this in another thread today... I think this has turned it into only a one crown and water job!
Thanks Jaybeaux


And if you changed out the Sherwood pumps (Cummins 6CTA) with Tony's SMX pumps, then it's even quicker. Ten minutes for the port impeller change and twenty minutes tops for the starboard. Even without the fancy tool, just using two tie-wraps each. But I plan to get that impeller tool someday.

However, I have also changed impellers on CAT 3126's and the starboard is a real challenge. It might have been easier to remove the pump and change the impeller on the bench.
 
So, here is the backstory...and, the reason I asked....

[Part of the Email I wrote in response to receiving an invoice Dec. 1 for work done June 8th - slightly modified for context]


"xxxx is a nice guy and seemed to be competent. I don’t doubt his skills. Unfortunately, some things didn’t go as planned.

Remember, I hired you guys because I needed to reroute the fuel line in the way of replacing the starboard impeller. I added the oil change and impeller change to make it worth your time to do the job.

Well, the portable oil pump that he brought he mentioned was on it’s last legs. It had a difficult time getting the oil out and I’d say there was likely a fair amount of oil still in the pan that it just couldn’t pump out…But, that wasn’t a big issue I felt as you guys are the pros.

But, when he didn’t have a socket wrench to take off the impeller, nor the bolt to back it out (he had to use mine)…I started to get concerned. What should have been a quick job took forever…Esp. because he dropped a tool under the engine and took a fair amount of time retrieving it.
I know all this because I was there to help. Further, if I wasn’t, he wouldn’t have had been able to use my bolt to back out the impeller.

The worst part was when he told me to fire up the starboard engine and he was outside the boat on the dock and didn’t see water coming out. He told me to let it run for a bit as he was watching it. Then he told me to rev the engine up to 1000 rpm…I was watching him the entire time from the helm for a signal to shut it down…finally after about a min., I shut it down. He went down to investigate and found he had left the seacock closed. Now, I had previously asked if the seacock was reopened and he confirmed it was open. He had re-closed it when he saw water dripping from the water pump plate to tighten. Further, I asked was he sure he was ready to start up and he said yes.

Now, after he caught the seacock issue, we fired the engine back up and water came out the side of the boat. I didn’t want to make an issue out of the event because I figured it was something to discuss with you and get your thoughts. I know when I had an issue with no water flow for my genie impeller for about the same length of time I damaged the impeller. Now Phil didn’t suggest reinspecting, nor taking responsibility, which I wasn’t thrilled about. I mean how do I know if it cracked, etc? Further, since nothing was done to extend the fuel line it’s still in the way of the impeller. So it’s difficult for me to investigate.

Lastly, when he was ready to leave and he was collecting his tools, the blanket he used to keep the area clean actually stained the vinyl seating. We were both surprised. It just seemed like what could go wrong, would go wrong. Clearly he made an effort to keep the boat clean by bringing a blanket. Yet the blanket ended up staining the seats. He mentioned that it was a new blanket and that was likely the issue. Yet there was a purple stain. After me spending multiple times trying to remove the stain, it is mostly gone, but it was a lot of my time.

I guess that many people people would have been more upset about the events. It’s just not my nature to get too worked up over mistakes."

When I didn't receive a bill I figured you were to embarrassed to send it.
[END]

This is the initial response to my email :

"So, you are refusing to pay any of this bill?"

....Now, after a few emails back and forth, he thinks I just want to stiff him.

I was billed 7 hours to do oil change with filters on both engines, and stbd. only impeller change. I don't want to stiff him, I'm simply trying to workout what is fair since he didn't make any gesture or suggestion.
My .02...
If you were unhappy with the impeller dry start up/possible damage, it should have been pulled right then.
If you were unhappy with the work, the guy that that did it should have been told right then.
If you were unhappy with the work, the guy at the office should have been made aware right then.
If you want to use them again pay the bill, arguing the bill after 6 months just makes you look like a chiseler.
Good that you don't get worked up too easy, but you still have to speak up timely, better for you and fair to them.
 
My .02...
If you were unhappy with the impeller dry start up/possible damage, it should have been pulled right then.
If you were unhappy with the work, the guy that that did it should have been told right then.
If you were unhappy with the work, the guy at the office should have been made aware right then.
If you want to use them again pay the bill, arguing the bill after 6 months just makes you look like a chiseler.
Good that you don't get worked up too easy, but you still have to speak up timely, better for you and fair to them.

I see your points, but sometimes I simply let things play out.

"If you were unhappy with the impeller dry start up/possible damage, it should have been pulled right then." Perhaps, but I would think anyone who hired a professional would have been unhappy. I could see in the mechanics expression and conversation that he knew he did wrong. It was obvious. Would you not be unhappy? So, why should I have to get confrontational? I wanted to see what was offered. He didn't offer to pull it, so I figured I would review the bill when it arrived.

As stated, when no bill arrived, I thought perhaps they were too embarrassed to bill me.

"If you were unhappy with the work, the guy at the office should have been made aware right then."

The mechanic was...I made it clear in our conversations. He made it clear in the conversation as well... Understand, this isn't a 10 man shop, nor a 3 man shop. It's simply two guys. Your thought is, it's on me because I didn't reach out to the other guy? Interesting...

"If you want to use them again pay the bill, arguing the bill after 6 months just makes you look like a chiseler." That's the paradox...I would only use them again if they are reasonable. Meaning, taking ownership of their mistakes. I'm not arguing, I'm making clear to the guy that sent a bill out six months late, the issues that arose that day.

So, if I understand you, though I did nothing wrong, and the mechanic made several mistakes, I shouldn't dispute the bill. Further, he knew the mistakes he made and the time it cost and doesn't deny them, I shouldn't dispute the bill. In addition, the bill wasn't sent, not for a month, not for two months, but for six months, and I shouldn't dispute the bill. To be clear, the bill arrived last weekend and I wrote a reply two days later. My thought is, I was very timely. Before the bill, there was nothing to dispute. Did you catch that there has been no bill to dispute?

I don't accept your thoughts. In fact, I'll add, this type of logic is what's going wrong with this country, and I'm doing my best not to be a part of it. This is why our school system is shit; This is why our health care system is shit; this is why many products are inferior to how they were built a generation ago.

Accept mistakes; accept poor management (billing after a half year); and don't stand up for yourself. Nope, that's not me...I'll work with you. In fact I'll even wait for someone to figure out the honest and fair path on their own. But, if they don't, I have no problem making it a teaching moment.

Curious what line of work you're in?
 
I agree with Woody's points.. if you subcontract. I am 100% DIY except for black water plumbing.. I hate plumbing.... The reason I got this way is because I am cheap and quality of work from subcontractors is never satisfactory to me.

When I do subcontract on the boat, house or at work I monitor constantly. If there is an issue I am on the supervisor immediately. So we can work out the issue with the employee's quality of work, root cause or changes to the scope of the work as the problem/situation is happening in real time.

I get your points, I have friends that are 100% outsource and they pay for it....either in quality or cost. That's okay too. I think your just hearing two sides of how people work with subcontractors
 
@Blueone , I see your and @Woody points as well, and appreciate your post. I'm not sure what impression I've given you, but I do about 90% of the work on my vessel. I do it because I want to challenge myself and I have the same concerns you do. In fact, I did a complete turbo and elbow exchange on both engines. But in this instance I didn't want to mess with a fuel line.

I also agree with you, that I would reach out to a supervisor if a crew came out and made mistakes. But, I'm making a differentiation between a crew, and the single other guy in a company of two... You might disagree...Further, this wasn't something I found out after the fact and needed to bring to their attention. If, for example, I found the stain on the seat after they left, I would have let them know immediately so they can come see it for themselves. But, in this case, they were there to see it. Why would I call to complain or inform them if they already know?

Look, I appreciate varying opinions. But, I always go by the litmus test of what I would do if things were reversed. In other words, how I would act in their position. first, I would have billed timely. I don't think anyone would consider this a timely bill. Second, I would apologize and take ownership of the mistakes and rectify them. Third, I would have billed in consideration of the time it should have taken reasonably.

Keep in mind, when I made the thread, I was primarily asking about personal experience of time to do the two jobs. Not that it's scientific, but it helps get a reasonable idea.

So, are you saying you would pay an invoice that arrived 6 months late, in full, even though the work was done as described?
 
@Blueone
So, are you saying you would pay an invoice that arrived 6 months late, in full, even though the work was done as described?
My comments were not directed at your specific situation, they were just meant in general terms from a different perspective.
Would I pay a 6 month old bill?... We were at a very expensive private yacht club (The Old Club) for a weekend in early summer two years ago. You got a membership card and everything had to be charged to the card and you settled up your bill upon leaving. This place was insanely expensive when I got the bill I was shocked, paid it and left. 8 months later I get a call from the controller and he said I didn't pay for a charge.... $80 for breakfast for the two of us (crazy), the waitress made a mistake and put it on another customers bill. He wanted me to pay up over the phone, I said 8 months later you are telling me this? ..I told him it was his mistake, if you send me proof of the charge and my signature I would pay it.... He never sent the proof and I never heard from him again.

In your situation I would do the same thing talk to him over the phone or in person would be better and go thru the bill and justify the charges along with you explaining what it cost you and agree on an amount....
 
My comments were not directed at your specific situation, they were just meant in general terms from a different perspective.
......
In your situation I would do the same thing talk to him over the phone or in person would be better and go thru the bill and justify the charges along with you explaining what it cost you and agree on an amount....

And, that's where we are. Except I'm using email so I have a paper trail and no miscommunication.

I know there are people that would tell him "screw you", and I know there are people that would simply pay it and never use them again....I'm just trying to be reasonable...
 
Not sure if I missed it, but have you spoken with the shop? Emails are great for reference and tracking purposes, but they can easily cause miscommunication due to word choice and lack of tone. I have been the guy in the field for more than 30 years with heavy equipment. Most service writers just bill full time, especially if they are unaware of any problems or delays with tooling or whatever. Haven't worked with any though that weren't willing to work with the customer within reason. Sounds like you are both probably pretty reasonable. Hopefully everything gets worked out.
 

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