Don't bite the hand that feeds you...

Gofirstclass

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,670
Tri Cities, WA
Boat Info
Boatless in WA
Engines
No motor
I read an interesting article in this a.m.'s paper about a conglomerate of loosely organized non-profit groups who have gotten together with one goal in mind: Fight Amazon.

This coalition, named Athena, is comprised of about 3 dozen small groups, most with a single attack area like digital surveillance, antitrust and warehouse working conditions.

Athena was part of the fight to force Amazon to pay a minimum of $15 per hour to its workers nationwide. They also were part of the anti-Amazon movement that forced Amazon to cancel its plan to put a headquarters facility in New York.

A quote from the article: "Every day, ships, trucks, trains and airplanes bring an estimated 21,500 diesel truckloads of merchandise to 21 Amazon warehouses in the four-county region".

They're talking about the Southern California where they say more than half of Amazon workers live in substandard housing. And for every $1 in wages they receive 24 cents in public assistance.

According to Google, "In 2018, the American multinational e-commerce company, headquartered in Seattle, Washington, employed 647,500 full- and part-time employees. Amazon is the leading e-commerce retailer in the United States with around 178 billion U.S. dollars in 2017 net revenues.

Now to me that seems like they're biting the hand that feeds them. I wonder how many of those 647,500 people would be on welfare or would be homeless if they didn't work for Amazon.

I may be prejudiced toward Amazon and will admit that we have had an Amazon Prime account for several years. While we're not likely the biggest buyer of Amazon products, we have done most of our Christmas shopping through Amazon. No more fighting the crowds for this boy.

What say you, is Athena biting the very hand that feeds over half million employees?
 
All of these groups have one glaring thing in common. Zero solutions. Equality of outcome is a funny thing. Any attempt to impose it invariably hurts more people than it helps. Impose $15 / hour, for example, and suddenly $15 / hour doesn't go as far as it used to because everything gets more expensive. So why not $20, or $50 or $100? Where does it end?

Labor is a product, and like any other has a market value. There will always be lower skilled persons doing jobs the rest of us don't want to do, and thank goodness for it. The idea that their pay level should be tied to anything other than their market value is absurd on the face of it and removes all incentive to improve their marketability.
 
Any attempt to impose it invariably hurts more people than it helps. Impose $15 / hour, for example, and suddenly $15 / hour doesn't go as far as it used to because everything gets more expensive.
Many Amazon employees and employees in other Seattle based companies found that out the hard way. They loved their increased wages until they found out they then made too much money to qualify for their subsidized housing.

To keep the government assisted housing they had to reduce their hours to stay under the income limit. So they ended up in a worse position than they were before. Not only were they working fewer hours to keep the income down to allowable limits, but because of the increased costs of good that went along with the wage increase they actually lost ground.
 
IMG_4230.JPG
The right to bargain for better pay is one of the freedoms we enjoy in America. They can ask and demand and do whatever they want within the law. Amazon can cave, not cave or partially cave into their labor pressures. With full employment in our current economy, this is a good time to try to improve your lot if you sell labor. I'll bet most of us tried to buy our boats for the lowest possible prices. Most of us probably never turned down raises. Amazon workers are trying to sell their labor for the best possible prices. It's as American as Apple pie.
 
Not only were they working fewer hours to keep the income down to allowable limits, but because of the increased costs of good that went along with the wage increase they actually lost ground.
Who in their right mind didn't see that coming?
 
These people can't see past their noses when they come up with this stuff. I said for years if minimum wage is $15/hr then a burger and fries at McD's will be $20. Same scenario with ACA. When companies were mandated to offer healthcare for anyone working over 30 hours a week businesses just started cutting hours to get around it. In the end workers had less money in their pockets. Small businesses can't afford these demands and will be forced to either shut down or raise their prices to where nobody can afford it then they eventually shut down anyway.

My wife has a former student she still talks to. The student does not work and has never had a job (she is 31 now. Her husband works and makes about $15/hour. Prior to his promotion he was making about $12/hour. Back then they were on Obamacare. After he got his promotion their healthcare premiums went up to where they couldn't afford them. His company healthcare costs even more so they have no choice. The girl has a lazy eye so claims she can't drive or work. Her mother and father have done everything for her her whole life so now she has to depend on everyone for everything. Her husband keeps pushing her to get her drivers license but she claims she can't drive because of the lazy eye (more like lazy person). Her problem was how she was brought up and how her parents coddled her. She graduated with my step-son. He is a Corporal detective making a good living. It's all in how you are brought up. This girl has an older sister that also doesn't work. She lives off the system.
 
That mean old Amazon...
In this morning's paper was a small article that said Amazon is going to hire 200,000 people for the holiday season, double what they did last year.

It also said that Amazon said it has promoted about 19,000 workers who packed and shipped orders to manager or supervisor roles.

Mean old Amazon.

But that also is a strong signal that our economy is still robust and Amazon (and Target and others) expect that buyer demand for goods will more than offset the increased labor costs.
 
I am not an Amazon fan by any means over a bad transaction 5 years ago and have never used them since and somehow I am still surviving...
There are too many of these stories out there of their working conditions... you never hear of them from Fedex or UPS to the extent you hear them from Amazon.... maybe the biggest gets the most attention but it has to make you wonder

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/...r-reveals-brutal-working-conditions-at-amazon
 
Funny we legislated higher minimum wage in Ontario Canada and the sky did not fall. In days gone by a person working full time at any job could support a family. Owners of very small businesses had a standard if living roughly twice as good as thier employees . Now those same very small businesses want a much higher standard and are unwilling to share the wealth or ho on a few less exotic vacations per year. If the revenue generated cant pay a living wage it's time to think about if it is viable.
 
I am not an Amazon fan by any means over a bad transaction 5 years ago and have never used them since and somehow I am still surviving...
There are too many of these stories out there of their working conditions... you never hear of them from Fedex or UPS to the extent you hear them from Amazon.... maybe the biggest gets the most attention but it has to make you wonder

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/...r-reveals-brutal-working-conditions-at-amazon

Early in my working career I worked for UPS. Spent 10 years working for “Big Brown”. Probably the hardest I physically worked in my career but I wasn’t over worked. Became a supervisor. Got paid very well and had great benefits. Never any regrets.
 
Its funny that the real socialist left looks at all the wealth created by capitalism and wants it spread around in a socialist way. What they don't realize is that without capitalism and free markets there will be far less total wealth to spread around.

That said, I do think a properly low minimum wage (but higher than current levels) regionally set, would go a long way to reducing crime and generating more prosperity for everyone. The problem is that it has to be low enough that you can live and get by, but not so high it promotes laziness. Unfortunately there are those that will never be able to move above that minimum wage job. Maybe its mental ability (or mental illness), physical disability, factors other than laziness. They should not have to feel like they need to steal or sell drugs just to be able to make ends meet. Having a minimum wage too low will drive people to not work.

Early in the industrial revolution even those that had limitations on their careers, could get a laborer or blue collar job. There were the farmers and farm workers, miners, manufacturing jobs, huge pools of clerical workers, autoworkers. Hard working people that could make enough to get by and not turn to crime, but low enough that they aspired to more, and worked their a$$es off to try to make life better for their children. Most of those jobs are gone. For today's youth that are not capable or cannot afford higher education, their choices are limited.

I think raising minimum wage is a MUCH better approach than welfare or providing a lot of services for free such that people can live off the system.

And that is about as far as my socialism will ever go.
 
Funny. Small business owners I know aren't taking elaborate vacations. They are driving 10 year old vehicles and live in houses no more extravagant than mine (and mine is a regular house). Business owners should enjoy more fruits of their labor. They are taking on added risks that employees aren't. The business goes under the employee finds a new job. The owner likely files bankruptcy and loses their house and cars. I can promise you if minimum wage doubles here then prices of everything will go up. It is simple economics. Somebody will have to absorb those costs.
 
Probably the hardest I physically worked in my career but I wasn’t over worked. Became a supervisor. Got paid very well and had great benefits. Never any regrets.
My son thru college worked for FedEx Ground loading delivery trucks and trailers... The green/red light over head telling you if you were on track or not was pretty interesting... He did very well there but like you said it was a work out
 
I am not an Amazon fan by any means over a bad transaction 5 years ago and have never used them since and somehow I am still surviving...
There are too many of these stories out there of their working conditions... you never hear of them from Fedex or UPS to the extent you hear them from Amazon.... maybe the biggest gets the most attention but it has to make you wonder

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/...r-reveals-brutal-working-conditions-at-amazon

If the conditions where I worked could be described as brutal, I would (and have) get a different job, but maybe that's just me. I'm pretty sure Amazon, UPS, FedEx, et. al. don't lock the employees inside. But that's the common thread between all of these stories. They completely disregard the willing victim aspect. Each individual is responsible for setting their own boundaries in terms of what they are willing to put up with in exchange for the amount of money they make.

Many have abdicated that responsibility and now expect the government to take it up on their behalf. Let's not forget the 9 scariest words in the English language. "I'm with the government and I'm here to help".
 
Its funny that the real socialist left looks at all the wealth created by capitalism and wants it spread around in a socialist way. What they don't realize is that without capitalism and free markets there will be far less total wealth to spread around.

That said, I do think a properly low minimum wage (but higher than current levels) regionally set, would go a long way to reducing crime and generating more prosperity for everyone. The problem is that it has to be low enough that you can live and get by, but not so high it promotes laziness. Unfortunately there are those that will never be able to move above that minimum wage job. Maybe its mental ability (or mental illness), physical disability, factors other than laziness. They should not have to feel like they need to steal or sell drugs just to be able to make ends meet. Having a minimum wage too low will drive people to not work.

Early in the industrial revolution even those that had limitations on their careers, could get a laborer or blue collar job. There were the farmers and farm workers, miners, manufacturing jobs, huge pools of clerical workers, autoworkers. Hard working people that could make enough to get by and not turn to crime, but low enough that they aspired to more, and worked their a$$es off to try to make life better for their children. Most of those jobs are gone. For today's youth that are not capable or cannot afford higher education, their choices are limited.

I think raising minimum wage is a MUCH better approach than welfare or providing a lot of services for free such that people can live off the system.

And that is about as far as my socialism will ever go.
Agreed it should go up a little but $15 is too high. I'd say most people I know are barely making that. Around here school teachers start at about $30-35k. $15/hour is ~$31k/year so a school teacher with tons of student loan debt would barely make more than an 18 year old flipping burgers. $10-12 is reasonable. $15/hour is more than double what it is now. The highest paid blue collar jobs around here are about $20-25/hour and those are dangerous jobs where lives are at risk. Those workers will now be demanding $35-40/hour. Inflation will be booming!
 
Agreed it should go up a little but $15 is too high. I'd say most people I know are barely making that. Around here school teachers start at about $30-35k. $15/hour is ~$31k/year so a school teacher with tons of student loan debt would barely make more than an 18 year old flipping burgers. $10-12 is reasonable. $15/hour is more than double what it is now. The highest paid blue collar jobs around here are about $20-25/hour and those are dangerous jobs where lives are at risk. Those workers will now be demanding $35-40/hour. Inflation will be booming!
It's all about economy of scale and minimum wages had to go up here , I live in small town Ontario Canads and it costs 1200 to rent a basement suite. It wasn't high wages that drove up rental costs but instead a burgeoning real estate market that skyrocketed at ten times the rate of inflation. I worked in Florida for a number if years and was amazed how low wages were for some. As a tradesman though I made in par with what I earned here that paired with a low cost of living and a warm climate made it quite comfortable to live
 
IMG_4230.JPG
I've been retired for nine years so no current business experience, but I did run a large business for 35 years. We never paid minimum wage to anyone because the rate was always too low to attract the talent we needed to be successful. Even the unskilled workers earned more than the minimum. Internal equity wage issues can be so devisive that you are better off dealing with your core business services than dealing with issues of wage fairness. It ultimately boils down to paying what you need to be a reliable, high quality company. So, you make a business decision, and ultimately that becomes the market rate for labor when enough companies do the same thing.
 
I sure wouldn't want to try to live on even $15/hr. Put some numbers to it...how far can it go, housing, food, clothing, transportation. Not far enough, that's why 10% of current full time workers and 25% of current part time workers have to use social programs to get by.

In the end as taxpayers have we subsidized an Amazon and reduced it's labor costs? Is that OK or not? Would Amazon still be what it is either way?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
112,950
Messages
1,422,864
Members
60,932
Latest member
juliediane
Back
Top