Conception incident and exit / egress USCG regs discussion

Boat Guy

Boat Guy

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2013
2,289
Who knows? Could be Cali, Oahu, Florida, Annapolis
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400 DA
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CAT 3116s
I didn't want to muddy the boat incident thread with this discussion. In fact, if the tragedy never happened, I want to discuss the logic and the regulations of egress on vessels.

So nothing needs to be specific to the Conception incident as I understand this is a common design and approval.

What strikes me personally, is how this would be acceptable to anyone esp. someone sleeping in quarters such as these.

I know I would not do it.

This is an image of the emergency exit on Conception and I imagine other similar vessels.

I ask myself, how fast could someone get through that in the best situation. Now add smoke and darkness...Consider people less mobile and overweight...What's the likelihood of someone getting stuck?

This, to me, is a disaster and an embarrassment ....What I mean is, it simply looks like something put in place to comply with a regulation and not a well thought out design. Any naval architect should ask the question if they would want their 7 yo daughter sleeping in another berth.

70100530_10220224896511655_8777973401294733312_n.jpg
 
My slipmate just had a brand new 68 Viking build and he has one of the first ones made because that is a new model for Viking. When they were laying out the boat Viking didn’t have hatches in all the staterooms and he insisted that they had deck hatches to the staterooms for emergency egress as he had been in a boat fire when he was young and knows first hand how important it is to have a way out. It shows that it is not primary concern even on new designs.
 
Correct, and it blows me away. I go to a lot of boat shows and it's something that I personally look for. So, I see all the new shiny designs and the open feel only to see that the windows are not removable and only have a small porthole you could fit an arm through.

Your friend is smart and naval architects should be ashamed. They are the people tasked to know better...Most boat owners today don't have a clue what to look for and just presume everything has been considered.

If you get a chance and your dockmate permits, could you post some picts?
 
Boat Guy said:
Correct, and it blows me away. I go to a lot of boat shows and it's something that I personally look for. So, I see all the new shiny designs and the open feel only to see that the windows are not removable and only have a small porthole you could fit an arm through.

Your friend is smart and naval architects should be ashamed. They are the people tasked to know better...Most boat owners today don't have a clue what to look for and just presume everything has been considered.

If you get a chance and your dockmate permits, could you post some picts?
Click to expand...

Sorry, He is very particular and wouldn’t want pics posted.
 
Apparently Viking didn't expect other buyers to value those hatches. The current 4-stateroom 68 only has one hatch. It's in the VIP/bow stateroom and isn't particularly large.

That's what I like least about the big sportfishes.

As far as the Conception? There is NO WAY I'd share that small confined space with 30 people. That looked like a prison to me, even before the fire.
 
Boat Guy said:
I didn't want to muddy the boat incident thread with this discussion. In fact, if the tragedy never happened, I want to discuss the logic and the regulations of egress on vessels.

So nothing needs to be specific to the Conception incident as I understand this is a common design and approval.

What strikes me personally, is how this would be acceptable to anyone esp. someone sleeping in quarters such as these.

I know I would not do it.

This is an image of the emergency exit on Conception and I imagine other similar vessels.

I ask myself, how fast could someone get through that in the best situation. Now add smoke and darkness...Consider people less mobile and overweight...What's the likelihood of someone getting stuck?

This, to me, is a disaster and an embarrassment ....What I mean is, it simply looks like something put in place to comply with a regulation and not a well thought out design. Any naval architect should ask the question if they would want their 7 yo daughter sleeping in another berth.

View attachment 74591
Click to expand...

Question - if the emergency exit was as pictured here wouldn't you have expected at least a handful of folks from below deck to have exited the Conception? Unless the entire deck was engulfed which would potentially make any kind of deck hatch exit useless?
 
Boat Guy said:
I didn't want to muddy the boat incident thread with this discussion. In fact, if the tragedy never happened, I want to discuss the logic and the regulations of egress on vessels.

So nothing needs to be specific to the Conception incident as I understand this is a common design and approval.

What strikes me personally, is how this would be acceptable to anyone esp. someone sleeping in quarters such as these.

I know I would not do it.

This is an image of the emergency exit on Conception and I imagine other similar vessels.

I ask myself, how fast could someone get through that in the best situation. Now add smoke and darkness...Consider people less mobile and overweight...What's the likelihood of someone getting stuck?

This, to me, is a disaster and an embarrassment ....What I mean is, it simply looks like something put in place to comply with a regulation and not a well thought out design. Any naval architect should ask the question if they would want their 7 yo daughter sleeping in another berth.

View attachment 74591
Click to expand...

This photo is frightening. For the last 50 years land based building codes have required two egress points for a bedroom to be considered a bedroom and each had to egress to a different space. I believe there is a reluctance to retrofit safety systems into boats where land building codes are updated yearly with retrofits.

Perhaps it is a cost issue but there is no excuse not to require something as basic as two egress points from a design or retrofit perspective. I wouldn't pick on the Recreational boater.....but I would require it for any commercial boat that has passenger berths.
 
Stee6043 said:
Question - if the emergency exit was as pictured here wouldn't you have expected at least a handful of folks from below deck to have exited the Conception? Unless the entire deck was engulfed which would potentially make any kind of deck hatch exit useless?
Click to expand...

That hatch (and the stairway) opened to the Galley which is where the fire was.
 
Stee6043 said:
Question - if the emergency exit was as pictured here wouldn't you have expected at least a handful of folks from below deck to have exited the Conception? Unless the entire deck was engulfed which would potentially make any kind of deck hatch exit useless?
Click to expand...

I think it's too early to understand specifically what happened on Conception. It's possible people did try to exit from there. I also don't know definitively where it exits to. I've heard a hatch above to the gallery or the engine room. Neither of which appeal to me.
 
I look at that pic and wonder how it could be acceptable. Regardless of where it exits to, a ladder going straight up would be easier to find and navigate. It's bad enough you'd have to be part monkey to exit quickly under good conditions...but smoke, heat, darkness, fear/panic, and the fat unconscious guy that lays blocking the route through that top bunk is more than I want to imagine....a wooden boat on top of it, they never have a chance.:mad:
 
Two berthing areas. One (customers) below the Galley and another (crew) in the Helm station above it. The crew member that died was sleeping in the customer area.

In between was the Galley where allegedly the fire broke out and blocked the exit(s) from the customer berthing area. Very sad.
 
Reported in the WSJ:

No one was on Watch. Allegedly all 5 crew were asleep at the back of the Helm Station. One woke up, saw the flames and woke the other 4 up....including the Captain. The Galley fire was raging at that point which required them to jump from the upper deck to the weather deck. One of the crew broke their leg in the jump.

There is some suspicion that people charging their phones and cameras might have started the fire.

I am just dumbfounded that the crew did not have someone standing watch. Allegedly the crew did not hear any smoke or fire alarms.
 
Stee6043 said:
Question - if the emergency exit was as pictured here wouldn't you have expected at least a handful of folks from below deck to have exited the Conception? Unless the entire deck was engulfed which would potentially make any kind of deck hatch exit useless?
Click to expand...

Another question, when you use these type dive boat cruises do they go thru evacuation procedures? I have never been so I don't know.
 
When you hear that the entire crew were able to escape but passengers did not, it instantly brings me to think, design, procedure, training, or desire.
Certainly do not wish any crew members to be harmed but it just doesn’t look good when the folks in charge of everyone’s safety survived and those whom entrusted the crew with their lives, did not. Makes you think of Titanic where the crew were the very last to leave, and we know many did not.
Not only is the USCG involved but the NTSB will do their investigation and those folks do not miss much. Will be interesting to understand the outcomes and curious if like Eric said, changes to the industry follow. I too have been on more than just a few boats, and I do look at egress points and escape routes as important as anything else on the boat.
I will not try and second guess or arm-chair quarterback the captain and crews decision making process but instead will await the reports from the NTSB.....and will be curious if changes come about from the findings.
Pray for the victims and families, and make escape discussions a real thing when having first timers on your own boat....I do.

Capt. R
 
Last edited:
Capt. Rusty Higgins said:
Pray for the victims and families, and make escape decussions a real thing when having first timers on your own boat....I do.

Capt. R
Click to expand...
Excellent advice about including escape route information to those who have never been aboard your boat.

I always give a preflight briefing when we have guests on board but have never mentioned escape routes.

I will now.

Thanks, Rusty.
 
IMG_4230.JPG
I saw some news coverage of a person using the emergency exit on a sister ship to this dive boat. Getting out was slow and not easy under ideal conditions. The design is certainly an issue.
Concerning cell phone charging. There have been two total losses of local boats that were destroyed when cell phone chargers caught fire in the middle of the night. Commercial charters need to look at that issue as well.
 
None of this bodes well for those in a position of authority. Failures at multiple points, from practical egress design, to crew watch. And to me, disregarding that the owner of Conception has filed maritime protections, there was a responsibility for a crew night watch, and from the information available, it appears that all the crew was asleep. This allowed the fire to progress and reach a point where none of the available berth area exits were viable.

These are life lessons for us to be proactive. I don't think any of us keep a night watch, so having smoke detectors and CO detectors on board and tested is a minimum.

But, no joke, I have thought seriously what would happen if a fire started in the bilge, cockpit, or galley....Any one of those points and the standard exit would likely be inaccessible. I think we have all seen videos of how fast our fiberglass boats would be in full effect...

I imagine it would take me about 15 seconds to be on the bow and assess if I can make it around the gunwale or I'm jumping in the water. The more persons aboard multiply by 15-20sec...

It's comforting to have that hatch right above the berth.

I'm curious if anyone here that doesn't have this type of exit is considering their options.
 
Capt Rusty, you've most likely have the most mid to large boat time. Can you tell me if any of the boats have had sprinkler or some other type of fire suppression system? Not just in the engine room but thruout the boat?
 
I have three additional Fire, Smoke & Ionization detectors on board GT II. They are all wireless and have been configured by program to set off each other. One on the Bridge, Salon/Galley & Engine room at the highest part.

While I have an engine room camera & read cockpit area camera scrolling on one of my chat plotters that was not enough. I want as much advance notice as I can get with enough noise to get everyone & anyone’s attention. Underway while on the bridge the cameras scrolling helps but Ionization detectors pick Up usually quicker than just smoke detectors which will alert underway to some degree. Not great with engine room exhaust fans running which are always on before startup and continuously while underway.

We sleep on board approximately 250+ nights a year and want as much safety notification as I can get as seconds are the difference between life & death.

Several years ago another marina a couple of miles away lost two people and about forty boats. The boat loss was terrible but replaceable. The couple whom perished cannot be brought back and it shook us all up. We even installed wireless connected detectors on all the boats under the boat house roof with us as well as three in the boat house roof area. Not rated for external use but tested often and shall be replaced when any failure to operate shows up.

Cheat and easy additional action to gain valuable time when seconds count.
 
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