The Good and the Bad about your current boat

Hey Mark,

I enjoyed reading your pros and cons on the Marquis. This is a strong contender for our next boat. Engine room space and access is definitely a priority for me as well. I’m surprised about the draft as I believe they advertise it at 4’-6”. 6’ draft is definitely a concern for me. I’m curious about the comfort in the ride compared to your 47 Searay. Also, what is a comfortable cruise speed.

Cheers,

Steve
 
Interested in your bed making system. Can you share?

Bennett
Custom fitted bottom sheets are a huge help.
We had a spread made with piping around the outline of the mattress.
I remove it at night by folding it from the bottom to the top, I remove the decorative pillows and fold from bottom to top again.
We keep the blanket and flat sheets we sleep in stored in the closet and just put the bedspread over the fitted sheet when we make the bed.
In the morning I get up on the foot of the bed and unfold the bedspread in reverse aligning and straightening the piping on the spread as I unfold and work my way to the bottom.
Still a bit of a PIA but much better than trying to do the impossible and get it from the sides.

BTW: I love my boat but would never get another cruiser without a real island bed with good side access.
 
2000 290 Sundancer (very new to us)

The good:
Great price for size/amenities
Fits well on a trailer and I can tow it myself with my 1-ton
Easy to pull and launch with just two of us
Full head
Door to close off aft cabin
A/C works amazing!!
Nice big swim platform
Fairly easy to maneuver....still only been on the water a couple days this year
Almost everything will be new by the end of the season.
stay tuned....

The Bad:
Fridge is SUPER tiny
Has spent more time out of the water than at our slip this season (hence the reason it was so cheap, lots of maintenance/repair I needed to do)
Really don't like the canvas layout and especially how the canvas connects to front windshield
stay tuned.....
 
I'll keep this short and simple...

Each boat is mission specific - That said, the 400DA is great.

Honestly I look for things I'd change and I can only find one thing, well maybe two...

She was very well engineered, from the helm to the layout... I see things all the time on other vessels that I would change but not my boat, and like I said, I'm looking for things. I just got lucky finding this model. It's the sweet spot for me....The only reason to move on would be extra room, hence a change in mission.

So, the two things - 1. The door size could have been improved so that you don't need to pull the cabinet to remove the fridge. That's the worst job and everyone knows it. Or they could simply make reasonably repairable fridges....

2. I'd probably add an additional battery and have a separate house bank.

But, the two tiered swim platform; the helm station; the full doors to staterooms; the separate shower; the large blackwater tank; the fuel switching; the full sized fridge; the loads of storage; the large water heater; the two 30amp sides; two a/c units; redundant bilge pumps; wide beam with props fairly wide; step access if you can't use swim platform; color scheme; room for 40' flat screen; quality components; huge engine bay hatch with electric actuator; loads of room in the bilge; central vac; most everything accessible to repair; customer service that's super;

What else can I say... I'm going to miss all this when I move on...
This is the short and simple??
 
Hey Mark,

I enjoyed reading your pros and cons on the Marquis. This is a strong contender for our next boat. Engine room space and access is definitely a priority for me as well. I’m surprised about the draft as I believe they advertise it at 4’-6”. 6’ draft is definitely a concern for me. I’m curious about the comfort in the ride compared to your 47 Searay. Also, what is a comfortable cruise speed.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve, I have two separate published manufacturer documents, one says 5' 6", the other says 56" (4'8 versus 5'6). Talked to manufacturer- they acknowledged but didn't have any idea how it happened. They offered some ideas around measurements during a design phase getting mixed into marketing documents or a typo, or etc, etc.

Yachtworld ad's you see all kinds of numbers.

When in the purchase process I only had the 5'6" document in hand. While the boat was hauled out I asked the surveyor to give me a measurement. While the boat was sitting in the lift, he did some measurements in segments, adjusted when he saw the waterline after the boat went back in and came up with 66-69 inches plus or minus 2-3 inches.

This past summer when we had the boat in the Chesapeake I pulled it out for a bottom job. Approached much more methodically with the help of a service person. Took photographs in the water to establish where the waterline was in relation to the boot stripes.

After the boat was sitting on blocks in the yard, he and I arranged blocks to line up with where it appeared the lowest arc of the prop was. Then we moved the stack of blocks out to the edge of the boat, and measured up to a location relative to the boot stripe which showed the water line in the photo's.

We came up with 67 inches (figure there is a plus or minus in there). So in reality maybe 5'7 inches. I add 5 inches for navigation planning. That's how I come up with 6'.

I am used to it. You have been on the west coast of FL for a long time and know its an area that doesn't have deep water. There are places I just don't go. For example I will not use any of the passes around Sarasota. I was ok with Redfish pass in the 47DB, not with this boat.

I watch tides very close - grab that extra foot or two when I can. For example the run across Okeechobee going east or west, I want higher tide in the St. Lucie river.

As I mentioned - that's the "bad" about the boat. If you start doing some measurements around height of cockpit floor from waterline, then height inside crew quarters or engine room, you can account for the draft.

Ride comfort vs the 47DB? No comparison, much nicer. On the bridge hard to tell difference between 10knts and 20knts. Rough water is still rough - but this boat will handle much rougher than a 47DB (and the 47 is a very good boat). But then this is 10 Ft longer, couple of feet beamier, and 30-40K pounds heavier.

Big surprise was fuel burn. I can run at the same fuel burn rate as I did on the 47DB, yet move this boat 3 Knts faster.

Lots of discussion with previous owner and the captain that ran the boat for him a lot. Sweet spot on economy is a fuel burn around 60GPH. Depends on conditions - hit that around 1850 RPM. Ratings from MTU, WOT 2300, Cruise at 2000 and run all day.

At "my" cruise of 1850-1870, 60GPH, Full tanks (fuel 800, water 200) 19knts. Fuel at half tanks, 21Knts.

Hope that is helpful.
 
Custom fitted bottom sheets are a huge help.
We had a spread made with piping around the outline of the mattress.
I remove it at night by folding it from the bottom to the top, I remove the decorative pillows and fold from bottom to top again.
We keep the blanket and flat sheets we sleep in stored in the closet and just put the bedspread over the fitted sheet when we make the bed.
In the morning I get up on the foot of the bed and unfold the bedspread in reverse aligning and straightening the piping on the spread as I unfold and work my way to the bottom.
Still a bit of a PIA but much better than trying to do the impossible and get it from the sides.

BTW: I love my boat but would never get another cruiser without a real island bed with good side access.

Thank you. We have the OEM sheets for the MSR bed, but do not use them. We have a set of king bamboo sheets that we love. May take the fitted bottom sheet and have one made. We love our boat as well, but to make the bed everyday is too much of a pain. We pull the top sheet and comforter up to the pillows and call it a day...now changing them is easier with two people. Just a pain....

Thank you,
Bennett
 
That said, the 400DA is great.

But, the two tiered swim platform; the helm station; the full doors to staterooms; the separate shower; the large blackwater tank; the fuel switching; the full sized fridge; the loads of storage; the large water heater; the two 30amp sides; two a/c units; redundant bilge pumps; wide beam with props fairly wide; step access if you can't use swim platform; color scheme; room for 40' flat screen; quality components; huge engine bay hatch with electric actuator; loads of room in the bilge; central vac; most everything accessible to repair; customer service that's

I was seriously considering selling our 400 due to lack of use and “life” getting in the way, but reading through your post brought me back around. I LOVE the tiered swim platform, easy maneuverability, diesel performance, and overall layout. The only thing I would change would be updating everything to newer components, because at 22+ yrs old I’m getting sick of replacing broken things every year. Admittedly, it’s all little things like curtains, battery charger, pumps, etc. But the constant “what’s not going to be working this week?” is wearing on me.
 
I was seriously considering selling our 400 due to lack of use and “life” getting in the way, but reading through your post brought me back around. I LOVE the tiered swim platform, easy maneuverability, diesel performance, and overall layout. The only thing I would change would be updating everything to newer components, because at 22+ yrs old I’m getting sick of replacing broken things every year. Admittedly, it’s all little things like curtains, battery charger, pumps, etc. But the constant “what’s not going to be working this week?” is wearing on me.

Interesting point..... I look at it from the other side. While I have failures too, I'm amazed by the life of the components. I'm more concerned about replacing them with new parts with less confidence that they are built to last....The truth is though, there are many systems on the vessel, and you're reminded of that when things fail. Though, most everything is a relatively simple fix.

Case in point....Perhaps you saw my shower diverter thread. I had a crack in the plastic valve over the winter. I'm guessing water turned to ice. In any event, after spending a few minutes pulling it apart and researching online, I found out that they used a home product valve I was able to get from home depot....I didn't miss one hot shower. Instead of calling a company that would take a week to come out with multiple trips and likely a "boat buck", I spent a two hours driving and installing a $25 part....Not too bad.
 
97 Searayder F16XR jetboat.
Started out as a weekend boat for me and girlfriend to have fun.

The mechanics have more fun.

Good
When it actually works: lots of fun.

Bad: parts are scarce, hard to find other people who own them as well to compare notes .

2 weeks ago, started a carburetor cleaning job. Another nightmare, have to take it to the mechanic again. Turned into a crank/no start issue again. Huh??
 
Steve, I have two separate published manufacturer documents, one says 5' 6", the other says 56" (4'8 versus 5'6). Talked to manufacturer- they acknowledged but didn't have any idea how it happened. They offered some ideas around measurements during a design phase getting mixed into marketing documents or a typo, or etc, etc.

Yachtworld ad's you see all kinds of numbers.

When in the purchase process I only had the 5'6" document in hand. While the boat was hauled out I asked the surveyor to give me a measurement. While the boat was sitting in the lift, he did some measurements in segments, adjusted when he saw the waterline after the boat went back in and came up with 66-69 inches plus or minus 2-3 inches.

This past summer when we had the boat in the Chesapeake I pulled it out for a bottom job. Approached much more methodically with the help of a service person. Took photographs in the water to establish where the waterline was in relation to the boot stripes.

After the boat was sitting on blocks in the yard, he and I arranged blocks to line up with where it appeared the lowest arc of the prop was. Then we moved the stack of blocks out to the edge of the boat, and measured up to a location relative to the boot stripe which showed the water line in the photo's.

We came up with 67 inches (figure there is a plus or minus in there). So in reality maybe 5'7 inches. I add 5 inches for navigation planning. That's how I come up with 6'.

I am used to it. You have been on the west coast of FL for a long time and know its an area that doesn't have deep water. There are places I just don't go. For example I will not use any of the passes around Sarasota. I was ok with Redfish pass in the 47DB, not with this boat.

I watch tides very close - grab that extra foot or two when I can. For example the run across Okeechobee going east or west, I want higher tide in the St. Lucie river.

As I mentioned - that's the "bad" about the boat. If you start doing some measurements around height of cockpit floor from waterline, then height inside crew quarters or engine room, you can account for the draft.

Ride comfort vs the 47DB? No comparison, much nicer. On the bridge hard to tell difference between 10knts and 20knts. Rough water is still rough - but this boat will handle much rougher than a 47DB (and the 47 is a very good boat). But then this is 10 Ft longer, couple of feet beamier, and 30-40K pounds heavier.

Big surprise was fuel burn. I can run at the same fuel burn rate as I did on the 47DB, yet move this boat 3 Knts faster.

Lots of discussion with previous owner and the captain that ran the boat for him a lot. Sweet spot on economy is a fuel burn around 60GPH. Depends on conditions - hit that around 1850 RPM. Ratings from MTU, WOT 2300, Cruise at 2000 and run all day.

At "my" cruise of 1850-1870, 60GPH, Full tanks (fuel 800, water 200) 19knts. Fuel at half tanks, 21Knts.

Hope that is helpful.

Great info Mark, Thanks
 
We love our boat but heres a few high lights...
Awesome cockpit seating, we've sat 8 for meals!
Great motor/drive combo
Beamy! Lots of floor space for our dogs
Tons of storage room!
Can be run solo!
And a few we wish it hads!
A pedestal bed(walk up both sides)
a larger galley fridge.(newer bigger self vented models will fit with mods)
a small cockpit fridge(the wiring is there)
The fridges are in the cards. The bed works but the pedestal would be nice!
 
Good:

- Efficient and comfortable interior layout
- Lots of cockpit room for fishing or entertainment
- plenty of storage
- V-drives make low speed handling a dream.
- Fit and finish are as good as or better than all others I've seen in its class.
- electric (aft) engine room hatch
- Large, low to the water swim platform with a great boarding ladder.

Bad / wish it had:

- cannot standup straight in the head (if you are 6' or taller)
- Engine room access is very tight, especially with V-drives and a generator.
- Forward (narrower) engine room hatch is a PIA to remove/replace.
- It would be nice if the aft bench would fold down when not in use

Head Scratcher:

- The mirror in the head is hinged at the top but there is nothing behind it.
 
Anytime I think about buying a different boat I always come back to our 460. Granted, we are only 7 months into it but tradeoffs would not be worth it. I do become frustrated with the constant repairs/expenses but even a new boat will have those if in salt environment. I was told to expect 20% of the purchase price will be spent the first year on operational expenses and repairs but we've already exceeded that, and this was a well maintained boat. Just re-read the advice given "Football Fan" on buying a 50' boat regarding the expectations on expenses. Spot on! Wish we would have taken that to heart rather than thinking/hoping that a well maintained,14 year old boat would be different. Ahh well, live and learn. its about adjusting expectations and enjoying what you have.

Good:
-Performance with Cummins 450s and less noisy at cruise than I expected.
-Large cockpit
-So much more area in the "cave" than similar boats.
-V-Drives
-Dock mates ! new friends!
-CSR help and advice .
Bad:
-A/C in cockpit not really effective in sweltering Florida this time of year.
-narrow walkway on both sides from cockpit to Bow.
-Short railing on above.
 
I would agree with Bob and Fred and echo praises of the 460 DA. We have had ours for twelve years now and received help from CSR on our original decision. I know the boat pretty well and every season we take one 500-1000 M trip. Short trips and living aboard after that.

Good:
-everything already said, big, beamy and comfortable
-lots of room below and adequate for two couples
-efficient performance
-excellent handling at the dock
-hydraulic GHS platform
-simple to maintain with the mechanical Cummins
-still gets a lot of admiration with her classic Sea Ray lines

Bad:
-not too much but would be nice to walk around the bed (I know, get a 540, 550)
-could use more speed. We cruise at 20 knots generally, but efficiency is decent, burning 26-27 gph total
-cockpit AC struggles in the hottest weather but we have a large camper back for three season livability
-engine room has a lot of equipment and is snug in places

We are always open to consideration of another boat but really cannot justify parting with it. The 48 DA is attractive but we like our more open salon; a 52 DB might be an option but we really love the Sundancer and she looks factory new. I fear that we wouldn't find another boat as good as this one for our purposes.
 
Each boat is mission specific - That said, the 400DA is great.

I must agree. I'm sure there is a boat with better ER access, but I'm not sure I've ever SEEN it.

It sounds like we have consensus on the 2-tiered swim platform. My dingy consumes the entire extended platform, so not having that would be a problem for me. It's also helps when boarding from a low dock to starboard.

It was an interesting choice for SR to eliminate that on the 410, but the 410 addresses the poor side-deck boarding of the 400: The drop-down port step can't be open when the transom door is open, and starboard is worse: I lose the whole corner seat cushion in order to make it a step.

Several of my opinions have evolved over the years.

I didn't like the steep angle of my plotter, but now I have two 7" plotters directly above the wheel. When they're in too much sun, I appreciate that the 12" is vertical.

I was jealous of the stateroom entry to the head when the 410 came out, but then flat screen TV's came out, and not having a pocket door means we can flush-mount the TV on the bulkhead.

I was also jealous of two portholes in the galley of the 410. The fwd one on the 400 is behind a cabinet. After living aboard though, I learned to appreciate every bit of storage.

I don't know who thought it was good ergonomic design to put 22 rockers switches in a row, but they were incorrect.

I almost wish there was more to complain about with a 400DA - I'd have a newer, bigger boat by now.
 
The 280BR (and SS). I'm biased of course, but there's nothing about their lines I can take issue with. Sleek, yet classic and practical and aging well.

She has an awesome balance of performance and ride: she does both very well. 45 MPH or more AND comfortable in weather?!

Comfortable seating for you and your 11 closest friends. (except for the fwd-facing passenger - it's oddly cramped)

ER access is pretty good with twins, but anything behind the engine is a reach. With a single you could find room to take a nap in there.

Nice levers with twins, and an overall nice dash layout. There's no place to flush mount a plotter though.

TONS of storage. The head is tight, but considering that it's a bow rider, that there IS a head at all is a win.

The scuppers are poorly placed, poorly designed and dangerously ineffective. I don't know of a 280BR that's been swamped, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I think the battery layout is smart. They're easy to access and provide more reserve than I'd ever need.

I can say the same about HP. With twin 250 HP small blocks, this boat has more than enough power. There's something effortless about a boat with lots of available power. That's with carbed engines and Alphas - more could be had!

I think the #1 feature that I appreciate is the top. If anyone wants to bake in the sun, the whole bow area is perfect. I don't like to bake though, so having so much shade in the cockpit is awesome. I look at the current trend of non-fishing center consoles with no shade and they seem absurd in contrast to this big, fast, quiet, comfy, shady, sunny sport boat.
 
@RollerCoastr

---But the 410 addresses the poor side-deck boarding of the 400: The drop-down port step can't be open when the transom door is open, and starboard is worse: I lose the whole corner seat cushion in order to make it a step.---

Interesting perspective - My drop down step is left open and I don't have a problem using the transom door. True, you can't secure the door, but I've never found that necessary in a slip. When underway the door is secured closed....I agree about the Stbd side access and always try and get a port side tie up or finger pier....Though port side is sweet. Basically no matter where the tide is I can walk on the vessel from one of three platforms.

I'm not sure what you mean about the step angle of the plotter, but I plan on posting my helm station soon to show what works for me...I have a 12" and 14" plotter and a 12" Ipad.

I'm not familiar enough with the 410 to comment on storage, but I'd take galley storage over a porthole any day. We really utilize the boat for extended stays. Though more natural light would be nice.

Re the rockers, I don't have issue....In fact I really like all the room the helm has and the ability to modify it.
 
If you compare the design of the step and door setup of the 410, I think you'll agree that it's an improvement. If I have to go to the bow to adjust a line, I find myself stepping over the closed door or climbing to the deck without the step. I wouldn't sacrifice the upper platform for it though.

When the 12" was my only MFD, seeing it while standing at the helm was an issue. At night for example, when I want to stand for the best view, the plotter can't be seen without bending down. Now with the 7" MFD's in the instrument row, I can glance there when I want to, or over at the 12" when I need to. Problem solved.

Before installing the 7-inchers, I considered customizing the panels by moving and re-clustering some of the switches. ie: moving all the light switches to the instrument row and spacing-out the remaining ones.

After 20 years, I know them all by position and feel, as I'm sure you do. I can't however, ask anyone else to operate them at night without counting. "hey, can you turn on the spoiler lights for me? it's the ELEVENTH switch from the right. No, you counted from the left. It's the TWEVTH one from the left"

No matter how well we eventually adapt, that's not a good design.
 
@RollerCoastr - I searched on YW for a 410 and found one with great pictures, so I understand what you're saying....Though, while I agree on the Stbd side it would be easier to remove the cushion, I'm not sure I agree on the port...Further, inside the well is where my manifold is to switch fuel tanks to either engine, etc...Did they do away with that? I would never climb over my door and not use the step to get to the bow. My step is down and stays down. I can get to the bow fast and safely...
 
What don't you like about the built-in step of a 410? I do like the storage inside the step, but not as much as I'd like to have a step and a secured open door. My fuel valves are on the ER bulkhead. I wasn't aware that all 400DA's didn't have them there.

I can't leave the the step down and the door unlatched - the door swings and bangs and my pup would escape!

Also, be careful of that step. They can break. Mine broke a bolt, and I know of several others that have as well. When mine broke it only dropped an inch, but if that put you off balance bad things could happen.
 

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