Almost got on the rocks

Blueone

Blueone

Well-Known Member
SILVER Sponsor
Jan 24, 2007
13,819
Lake Erie, Ohio
Boat Info
2004 420 Sundancer
Engines
Cummins 6CTA 450's
This past Sunday we are coming back to the marina in some pretty bad chop 3-4 footers but sporadic or sloppy.. the wind was coming out of the NNW at about 15 knots. The entrance to the marina is pointed to NNE if you were coming out of it. You can see the 50' reference in the picture (I am 45') so the entrance is quite narrow if you think about the rocks and what little reaction time you have.
As I approached the entrance at idle and using manual steering the second I was just into the entrance the waves bouncing off the interior of the break wall and hitting the boat, instantly turned me to starboard.. almost 50 degrees in an instant... the steering was useless... I am now in the entrance and headed west to the rocks. I put it in reverse and got the stern turned enough to miss the port rocks and exit.
So now things got serious... I have never in all my years been in a situation like this and I was quite surprised how little control I had of the boat in waves and wind especially magnified by the confined space.
After my wife calmed down I decided to experiment a bit. I tried again with a bit more speed thinking rudder control would be better... it didn't help.... it did exactly the same thing...but I didn't go in as far and I was ready for it...so all was good.
Next I tried auto pilot at idle and it didn't react quick enough...same thing knocked me to starboard
Last.. I didn't use steering at all and just relied on forward reverse and throttle and that was the ticket in this situation... staying slow and reversing Port to turn the bow around with throttle was the ticket.
In the end I was very surprised with the size and weight of the boat how little control I had.
Short of not going in the marina is there anything else I could have tried or what would you have done?... I know you don't know the conditions.... the one thing I learned out of this is always expect the unexpected in any situation....that was the eye opener here ...I really came in unassuming... and almost paid a hefty price

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Interesting post, appreciate it. Highlights the focus required at all times at the helm of the boat.

Will share a recent experience of mine. Our boat is affected much more by wind than current. We left the dock at a nearby marina headed back to where we keep the boat. Done this path more times than I can count now, swing away from the dock, head up the ICW for 1/2 mile, then start take a channel into where we tie up the boat.

Was a month or so ago. Brutal wind out of the west pinning us on the dock (25 KN). I wasn't worried about getting off the dock, was worried about the private slip where I have to park the boat. When I moved the rental car over to that location, I walked down to the dock to evaluate conditions. If it was blowing as bad as it was at the dock in the marina - we were delaying a day before we went home. When I got down to the tie up dock, was enough shelter from nearby houses and the fact the canal set lower that I felt it would be ok getting into the tie up. So we are moving.

Got off the dock with no issues. Wide big props and a willingness to use throttle made it work. Was not easy, but we did it. Then moving up the ICW. Guess I relaxed at that point and was not paying appropriate attention.

As wife was pulling in fenders - she "gently" inquired over the headset if I had a clue what was happening with the boat. Good heading, moving at idle speed, the wind had pushed us out of the channel. We were headed towards running aground. Not because of a navigational error - purely the wind pushing us over. And the captain at the helm (me) not paying close enough attention.

Caught it - but had to back out of it - was that close to a problem. Can happen fast with wind and current - specially if they are working together.

Mark
 
Blueone said:
This past Sunday we are coming back to the marina in some pretty bad chop 3-4 footers but sporadic or sloppy.. the wind was coming out of the NNW at about 15 knots. The entrance to the marina is pointed to NNE if you were coming out of it. You can see the 50' reference in the picture (I am 45') so the entrance is quite narrow if you think about the rocks and what little reaction time you have.
As I approached the entrance at idle and using manual steering the second I was just into the entrance the waves bouncing off the interior of the break wall and hitting the boat, instantly turned me to starboard.. almost 50 degrees in an instant... the steering was useless... I am now in the entrance and headed west to the rocks. I put it in reverse and got the stern turned enough to miss the port rocks and exit.
So now things got serious... I have never in all my years been in a situation like this and I was quite surprised how little control I had of the boat in waves and wind especially magnified by the confined space.
After my wife calmed down I decided to experiment a bit. I tried again with a bit more speed thinking rudder control would be better... it didn't help.... it did exactly the same thing...but I didn't go in as far and I was ready for it...so all was good.
Next I tried auto pilot at idle and it didn't react quick enough...same thing knocked me to starboard
Last.. I didn't use steering at all and just relied on forward reverse and throttle and that was the ticket in this situation... staying slow and reversing Port to turn the bow around with throttle was the ticket.
In the end I was very surprised with the size and weight of the boat how little control I had.
Short of not going in the marina is there anything else I could have tried or what would you have done?... I know you don't know the conditions.... the one thing I learned out of this is always expect the unexpected in any situation....that was the eye opener here ...I really came in unassuming... and almost paid a hefty price

View attachment 70763
Click to expand...

that exact situation happened to another former member here (he wrote it up too) IIRC he was heading into nantucket single handed using AP while rigging fenders in the channel and the wind/current got the best of him......not being at the helm, he ended up on the rock jetty and the boat sunk.....luckily the uscg station is right there and he stepped off his bow onto their boat as it went under
 
Jaybeaux said:
Blueone...my boat, same as yours, steers like a pig with the rudders. I would ALWAYS prefer to steer with the engines in any "close quarters maneuvering". Always with the rudders aligned straight forward.
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Same here, the fastest, most effective way, is using shift and throttle levers.

My autopilot seems to react quite fast on plane out on the lake but that's the only place I use it. When I came across the end of the lake a couple weeks ago I encountered a lot of wood, many large enough to F things up. Sometimes I wouldn't spot a big one soon enough and even the extra time glancing down to push a standby button bothered me so I did part of the trip with out autopilot.

As far as leaving the helm to put fenders out while single handing the boat:confused:....watching the boat motor away as I tread water doesn't appeal to me.:eek:
 
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My 370 Express required a little of everything when coming into the Grand Haven channel in a blow. I generally carried a bit of extra speed and stayed on the upwind side of the channel in case we would lose an engine or encounter something else unexpectedly. Would sometimes need to back off the throttles to keep from stuffing the bow. That boat always required a combination of power, steering wheel inputs and going into and out of gear to get it to go where you wanted. So that was the 370. The 300 Weekender was easier. Carry extra speed on the upwind side of the channel and power through it. The Tiara was easiest. Stay on the upwind side of the channel and keep the boat on plane until the confused seas settled down. I always steered manually and never on auto pilot in those conditions.
As an aside, the USCG runs at high cruise speed going out and coming in when the seas are breaking over both walls. It is pretty interesting to watch for people who understand the significance of being able to do that. The new rescue boats have great seakeeping abilities.
 
Blueone said:
This past Sunday we are coming back to the marina in some pretty bad chop 3-4 footers but sporadic or sloppy.. the wind was coming out of the NNW at about 15 knots. The entrance to the marina is pointed to NNE if you were coming out of it. You can see the 50' reference in the picture (I am 45') so the entrance is quite narrow if you think about the rocks and what little reaction time you have.
As I approached the entrance at idle and using manual steering the second I was just into the entrance the waves bouncing off the interior of the break wall and hitting the boat, instantly turned me to starboard.. almost 50 degrees in an instant... the steering was useless... I am now in the entrance and headed west to the rocks. I put it in reverse and got the stern turned enough to miss the port rocks and exit.
So now things got serious... I have never in all my years been in a situation like this and I was quite surprised how little control I had of the boat in waves and wind especially magnified by the confined space.
After my wife calmed down I decided to experiment a bit. I tried again with a bit more speed thinking rudder control would be better... it didn't help.... it did exactly the same thing...but I didn't go in as far and I was ready for it...so all was good.
Next I tried auto pilot at idle and it didn't react quick enough...same thing knocked me to starboard
Last.. I didn't use steering at all and just relied on forward reverse and throttle and that was the ticket in this situation... staying slow and reversing Port to turn the bow around with throttle was the ticket.
In the end I was very surprised with the size and weight of the boat how little control I had.
Short of not going in the marina is there anything else I could have tried or what would you have done?... I know you don't know the conditions.... the one thing I learned out of this is always expect the unexpected in any situation....that was the eye opener here ...I really came in unassuming... and almost paid a hefty price

View attachment 70763
Click to expand...
Whoa Blue! Glad you’re an experienced boater.
 
Have you ever been into Grand Bend Ontario? Canadian dockmasters are some of my favorite people... The channel is similar to that of your marina. It's wider, but even more exposed. Years ago, I hailed the dockmaster during my approach in poor conditions to give him a heads-up. He said, "come on in - no-one is in your way, so keep the throttles up until you can read the prices on my fuel pumps". I don't think I'll ever forget that!

Unlike in docking situations, speed can be your friend in a rough channel. I'd have come in hotter, and stayed hot longer. In your marina, the boats at-risk of your wake in the channel are also exposed to the lake via the channel, so that's not a bad scenario for you. At the point that I must throttle down, I then go to shifters and liberal use of throttle to fight the conditions, particularly on the reverse engine. Even LOTS of single-reverse thrust poses little risk of action that then has to be countered. If you need to back away from the jetty after having been spun to starboard for example, generous port reverse thrust will back you away some, and help a lot to pivot.
 
RollerCoastr said:
Have you ever been into Grand Bend Ontario? Canadian dockmasters are some of my favorite people... The channel is similar to that of your marina. It's wider, but even more exposed. Years ago, I hailed the dockmaster during my approach in poor conditions to give him a heads-up. He said, "come on in - no-one is in your way, so keep the throttles up until you can read the prices on my fuel pumps". I don't think I'll ever forget that!

Unlike in docking situations, speed can be your friend in a rough channel. I'd have come in hotter, and stayed hot longer. In your marina, the boats at-risk of your wake in the channel are also exposed to the lake via the channel, so that's not a bad scenario for you. At the point that I must throttle down, I then go to shifters and liberal use of throttle to fight the conditions, particularly on the reverse engine. Even LOTS of single-reverse thrust poses little risk of action that then has to be countered. If you need to back away from the jetty after having been spun to starboard for example, generous port reverse thrust will back you away some, and help a lot to pivot.
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I have been in Grand bend a few times... I think it is much wider then my marina... and your right Huron can get rough

I agree 100% on coming in hot and I tried that Sunday to a point but the boat still got pushed, The thing that scared me the most is going faster reduced your reaction time to zero to get the boat slowed down fast enough to go into reverse..

When the water is rough and I am off plane but pushing a lot of water maybe 1,500/1,600rpm and I pull back the throttles to idle the boat always goes right or left for a few seconds until you can rudder it straight again.... this is what I was worried about if I did get in the channel going faster then you should
 
Blueone said:
When the water is rough and I am off plane but pushing a lot of water maybe 1,500/1,600rpm and I pull back the throttles to idle the boat always goes right or left for a few seconds until you can rudder it straight again.... this is what I was worried about if I did get in the channel going faster then you should
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There are lots of things to worry about when going faster than you should! We should assume "as fast as we should"...

It sounds like the wander you're describing is the result of a quick pull-back? Ideally, you could transit the channel as fast as necessary to maintain control, and then slowly reduce throttle so you're at idle when you're in the basin and in a firm no-wake zone.
 
Woody said:
Same here, the fastest, most effective way, is using shift and throttle levers.

My autopilot seems to react quite fast on plane out on the lake but that's the only place I use it. When I came across the end of the lake a couple weeks ago I encountered a lot of wood, many large enough to F things up. Sometimes I wouldn't spot a big one soon enough and even the extra time glancing down to push a standby button bothered me so I did part of the trip with out autopilot.

As far as leaving the helm to put fenders out while single handing the boat:confused:....watching the boat motor away as I tread water doesn't appeal to me.:eek:
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Woody,

I added a Fell Marine wireless kill switch. There's been a couple of times when I've been fishing outside of Siskiwit Bay, had a fish on, with one hand on the rod and the other with the net, almost slipped overboard. Also, climbing around adding fenders and dock lines. Something to consider.

Ollie
 
Jaybeaux said:
Blueone...my boat, same as yours, steers like a pig with the rudders. I would ALWAYS prefer to steer with the engines in any "close quarters maneuvering". Always with the rudders aligned straight forward.
Click to expand...

I’ve got to go around a very tight circle when entering and leaving my canal. There is a boat tied up on the entry side that makes that one even tighter and shallow water all around adds to the challenge.
Afternoon winds around here are typically gusting pretty well.
Steering with the transmissions is the only way to go for me. One in forward and one in reverse to pivot in the tightest section of the circle. Most often a bit of momentary throttle to the reverse engine to bring the bow to where I need it.
 
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Interesting stories thank you for sharing it just goes to show you that no matter how big your boat is or how heavy your boat is she is no match for Mother Nature , Blueone ,That’s an interesting approach back to your Marina sounds like coming in at idle speed through that washing machine was throwing you around a bit, but you found the right solution .Those little 2 or 3 foot waves carry more weight than your boat so I can see how it will turn your bow whatever direction the wave is going, I find anything less than five knots the rudders are almost useless unless you’re in open water and don’t need such a tight margin of correction just takes too long for the boat to react once you turn the rudders and those 2/3 seconds maybe the difference of whether you’re on the rocks or not . How do you guys handle if someone’s coming out of the marina ? Is it wide enough for two boats to pass that looks like it can get interesting ! The entrance to my marina when I have to come on the inside for fuel delivery ,or offloading and it’s not much wider than my boat with prevailing Southwest winds five months out of the year it always becomes Harry coming on the inside you’ll see in the picture that I posted my boat is docked on the east outside fourth slip in from the end Sometimes I have to come in a little hot to get through the break wall.

Mark, I know that feeling of being blown out of the channel or coming close to it . where I boat before I get to the inlet it’s all narrow tight channels and is usually windy on the South Shore of Long Island most of the time. I’ll tell you a story about coming back from fire Island after a long weekend on the boat and having a great time we were headed back to the marina around 6 PM running in the state channel Coming from out east heading west it was a good steady 15 mph wind out of the south blowing perpendicular to the state channel that I was running I was just coming past Amity cut And I did not realize how close to the edge of the channel I have been running,the markers are not too close together I’m going to say at least a quarter of a mile apart ,usually I have a habit of looking behind me at the buoy I pass before I see the next one to make sure that I am in the channel and I cannot recall if I was doing that at the time Well wouldn’t you know it as we were cruising along at 17 kn my boat came to an abrupt stop everybody got tossed around a little bit thank God nothing serious ,shut the motors down jumped off the back of the boat into about mid calf high water and we weren’t going anywhere! We called Sea Tow and eventually were pulled off thank God for the prop tunnels because there was no damage but I must say that spot must’ve shoaled out into the channel Just enough because I was able to see after we stopped ahead of me the pole that my boat was in line with even though I was not inside of the pole but in line with it . I was definitely too far over for my comfort this was the summer after hurricane Sandy I believe running for a few miles in the channel with the wind pushing on the boat eventually brought me to the edge of the channel causing me to run aground that was the only time I ever ran around in the 20+ years I’ve been boating but I’m sure won’t be the last

***First image is the state boat channel where I ran aground the second image is The basin that my Marina is in and the third is the entrance to my Marina
 
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RollerCoastr said:
jeezus! What do you and your neighbors use as fenders? Extra thin bubble-wrap?? :eek:

I guess that would come in handy if you run out of beer. Just reach over the side of your boat, into your neighbor's cooler...
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Lol It looks tighter than it actually is From the distance there are no fingers between our boats so I would say I have about a foot on either side of my boat when I come though my poles .... I have become a pro at tight quarter maneuvering ...I’m confident to say that I’m up to any challenge
 
RollerCoastr said:
jeezus! What do you and your neighbors use as fenders? Extra thin bubble-wrap?? :eek:

I guess that would come in handy if you run out of beer. Just reach over the side of your boat, into your neighbor's cooler...
Click to expand...

Those kind of slips where you only have a pole between them are pretty common around here. It’s not common to find a slip where you have a finger let alone one on each side.
 
joeyleggz said:
View attachment 70791 View attachment 70790 View attachment 70789 Interesting stories thank you for sharing it just goes to show you that no matter how big your boat is or how heavy your boat is she is no match for Mother Nature , Blueone ,That’s an interesting approach back to your Marina sounds like coming in at idle speed through that washing machine was throwing you around a bit, but you found the right solution .Those little 2 or 3 foot waves carry more weight than your boat so I can see how it will turn your bow whatever direction the wave is going, I find anything less than five knots the rudders are almost useless unless you’re in open water and don’t need such a tight margin of correction just takes too long for the boat to react once you turn the rudders and those 2/3 seconds maybe the difference of whether you’re on the rocks or not . How do you guys handle if someone’s coming out of the marina ? Is it wide enough for two boats to pass that looks like it can get interesting ! The entrance to my marina when I have to come on the inside for fuel delivery ,or offloading and it’s not much wider than my boat with prevailing Southwest winds five months out of the year it always becomes Harry coming on the inside you’ll see in the picture that I posted my boat is docked on the east outside fourth slip in from the end Sometimes I have to come in a little hot to get through the break wall.

Mark, I know that feeling of being blown out of the channel or coming close to it . where I boat before I get to the inlet it’s all narrow tight channels and is usually windy on the South Shore of Long Island most of the time. I’ll tell you a story about coming back from fire Island after a long weekend on the boat and having a great time we were headed back to the marina around 6 PM running in the state channel Coming from out east heading west it was a good steady 15 mph wind out of the south blowing perpendicular to the state channel that I was running I was just coming past Amity cut And I did not realize how close to the edge of the channel I have been running,the markers are not too close together I’m going to say at least a quarter of a mile apart ,usually I have a habit of looking behind me at the buoy I pass before I see the next one to make sure that I am in the channel and I cannot recall if I was doing that at the time Well wouldn’t you know it as we were cruising along at 17 kn my boat came to an abrupt stop everybody got tossed around a little bit thank God nothing serious ,shut the motors down jumped off the back of the boat into about mid calf high water and we weren’t going anywhere! We called Sea Tow and eventually were pulled off thank God for the prop tunnels because there was no damage but I must say that spot must’ve shoaled out into the channel Just enough because I was able to see after we stopped ahead of me the pole that my boat was in line with even though I was not inside of the pole but in line with it . I was definitely too far over for my comfort this was the summer after hurricane Sandy I believe running for a few miles in the channel with the wind pushing on the boat eventually brought me to the edge of the channel causing me to run aground that was the only time I ever ran around in the 20+ years I’ve been boating but I’m sure won’t be the last

***First image is the state boat channel where I ran aground the second image is The basin that my Marina is in and the third is the entrance to my Marina
Click to expand...

That spot between the cut and Tobay is usually pretty good, but Sandy screwed everything up and the season afterwards was a guessing game. I found the bottom on the east side of the cut outside the entrance to Gilgo that summer. Guys we’re running aground there all that summer.
 
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