Chicago,Chicago, Whata Ya Do ................

I'd like to know where New Castle, PA ranks. When I was in college for Criminal Justice back in the late 80's one of my professors was a retired FBI agent. She said New Castle at that time was 2nd in the U.S. per capita for violent crime. I'm about 15 miles from New Castle, my brother-in-law has been a police officer there for about 20 or so years and my step-son has been there about 10 years. He is now a detective corporal there. Population is about 35-40,000 so not a big city but they probably average a shooting a week and probably 1-2 homicides per month. Not near the numbers of cities like Chicago but also nowhere near the population.
 
boatman37 said:
I'd like to know where New Castle, PA ranks. When I was in college for Criminal Justice back in the late 80's one of my professors was a retired FBI agent. She said New Castle at that time was 2nd in the U.S. per capita for violent crime. I'm about 15 miles from New Castle, my brother-in-law has been a police officer there for about 20 or so years and my step-son has been there about 10 years. He is now a detective corporal there. Population is about 35-40,000 so not a big city but they probably average a shooting a week and probably 1-2 homicides per month. Not near the numbers of cities like Chicago but also nowhere near the population.
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There's an old saying -- "Figures lie, and liars figure."
 
54% of American counties had no murders, and that a miniscule 2% account for a colossal 51% of the murders nationwide?

“If not for gangs and drugs, the number of murders by guns is below 1,700 in a county of 330,000,000 people. Remove the gangs and drugs, and the US is one of the SAFEST countries in the world.” He reports that the total number of gun deaths annually hovers around 38,000 – and calls to attention what the Left loves to overlook, which is that 28,500 are from suicides and that gang and drug activity accounts for 7,885 deaths.
 
yobub said:
@Bt Doctur I'm not sure why someone from New Jersey would want to throw shade at ANY place in the US, let alone a great city like Chicago, but here goes:


Chicago isn’t even close to the top of the per-capita murder rate. It gets a lot of attention because uniformed people with a political agenda like to point to it. Depending on the source, Chicago is between 10th and 25th in per capita murder rate. Sources are below.

https://madison.com/news/national/t..._ff178449-607d-5f0c-8ceb-b2155884b6fc.html#31

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/


Chicago does have a gang problem. It has developed out of a combination of long-term cultural issues in certain parts of town, combined with limits on policing strategies that have been enacted over time. Chicago police used to be able to "hassle" people who were hanging out - charge them with disorderly conduct, throw them in jail on that pretext, hold them overnight, then drop the charges. The cops, lawyers, judges, and gang members all knew it was a sham. It kept people in line, but wasn't constitutional. When that ended, the gangs became more bold because they knew the police couldn't do anything unless they were committing a crime.

Law enforcement efforts have been effective in arresting and convicting gang leaders, but this has left a leadership gap at the top of gangs which has broken down some of the norms that would guide how gangs behaved and how they operated. Unintended consequence of good police work, but it really contributes to the current situation. This perspective comes from a criminal defense attorney who worked many of these cases and from a Judge who hears many of these cases. They are both very close to the situation and I trust their perspective.

Chicago has a brand new mayor who is working to address the gang issue – we’ll see how it goes. I think there are enough factors that are outside of local control that the gang violence can, at best, be controlled.


Regarding the Illinois gun laws, @spikedaddy99 do some research. The majority of guns recovered in crimes come from out of state. Many come from Indiana, because of the proximity to Chicago and the lax gun laws there, specifically related to private party gun sales and gun shows. Private party sales don’t require a background check. Many in-state guns come through straw purchases from two gun shops that are very close to, but outside of Chicago. Close the gun show loophole, and create a purchase database that allows the police to end straw purchases, and you will go a long way to cutting off the flow of guns.

You can reference these sources for facts:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/chicago-gun-trace-report-2017-454016983.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...me-from/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a30d0e2546ce

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...overed-chicago-crimes-come-indiana/816399001/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2012-08-27-ct-met-gun-trace-study-20120827-story.html


“Innocent” bystanders do frequently get shot, but they also are frequently part of the same family or gathering as the targets of gang violence. I don’t have sources to support this other than anecdotes but when you listen to the news here, the bystanders are frequently on a porch with relatives, in a crowd at a party, or somehow affiliated with the targets. There are occasional stories of the true innocent bystander caught in crossfire, but it seems to be the exception.

We have seen a trend more toward expressway shootings because the neighborhoods are blanketed with police, police cameras, and shot detection technology. It is also easier to get away on the expressway. In general, these shootings miss their targets all together, but it increases the risk of true innocent bystanders getting hit. Again, unintended consequences from policing actions.


Also, before you walk away thinking I’m some liberal snowflake, I’m a certified NRA rifle instructor, a CCW permit holder, and obviously a gun owner. I’m also a person who loves the city of Chicago very much, and I get a bit frustrated with all the uniformed criticism. I ignore almost all of the political crap that people post on CSR, and I don’t have any idea why you post these things instead of talking about boating, but when you attack my town with uninformed commentary I feel the need to defend it.
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Chicago's murder rate is beaten by several cities, but it gets so much attention because the pile of bodies it generates is larger than every place else, the media loves presenting that image....violent crime in this country, even in the worst locations, has been dropping for decades but it's hard to tell from the media emphasis.

Here's a statement from one of your listed articles...The report analyzed data from crimes between 2013 and 2016 to better understand where guns in Chicago come from, and to help officials develop impactful solutions to address the root causes of the city's violence.

I read the report, the report is all about guns....???? Guns aren't one of the root causes of the city's violence. The violent use of guns themselves are a result of the real root problems.
 
Woody said:
Chicago's murder rate is beaten by several cities, but it gets so much attention because the pile of bodies it generates is larger than every place else, the media loves presenting that image....violent crime in this country, even in the worst locations, has been dropping for decades but it's hard to tell from the media emphasis.

Here's a statement from one of your listed articles...The report analyzed data from crimes between 2013 and 2016 to better understand where guns in Chicago come from, and to help officials develop impactful solutions to address the root causes of the city's violence.

I read the report, the report is all about guns....???? Guns aren't one of the root causes of the city's violence. The violent use of guns themselves are a result of the real root problems.
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I have never understood the lefts reaction of limiting the rights of law abiding gun owners to control criminals...

MM
 
yobub said:
Yes, FFL's are required to perform background checks. The phrase "Gun Show Loophole" refers to individual gun sales at gun shows that aren't subject to a background check.
https://www.governing.com/gov-data/...irearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-show-laws-by-state-721345
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

There are many factors that contribute to the issue. The idea that Indiana doesn't contribute to the issue just isn't supported by facts.
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I could see that logic if carloads of guys from Indiana we’re coming in to Chicago, shooting up the streets and driving back home to Indiana.
It seems more like the guys doing the shooting are from Chicago. Where they get the guns has less to do with the shootings then who is shooting them and why.
If Indiana stopped selling guns all together the guys from Chicago would just get them someplace else.
Based on your logic you would have to advocate for destruction of all guns in the US and make them completely illegal.
The guys doing the shooting are going to get guns somewhere and they’re not just doing one and done once they get them.
Here in NY they have to go several states away to get their guns and the distance doesn’t stop them.
Stricter gun purchasing laws seldom impact the bad guys because they don’t buy guns legally anyway.
The only way to reduce shootings in Chicago right now is through proactive policing and aggressive prosecution. Unfortunately, politics gets in the way of both.
 
JVM225 said:
Based on your logic you would have to advocate for destruction of all guns in the US and make them completely illegal.
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Your statement doesn't make any sense at all regarding my statements. I didn't advocate for anything of the sort.

I confirmed that Chicago has a gang problem, and stated that guns from neighboring states contribute to that problem, and supported it with facts. I proposed two solutions that would enable lawful gun owners to continue to purchase guns while taking steps to prevent unlawful gun owners from purchasing them, specifically requiring background checks on private party sales and establishing a registry to help prevent and trace straw purchases.

I don't understand why you have to create false statements in order to make your case.
 
yobub said:
Your statement doesn't make any sense at all regarding my statements. I didn't advocate for anything of the sort.

I confirmed that Chicago has a gang problem, and stated that guns from neighboring states contribute to that problem, and supported it with facts. I proposed two solutions that would enable lawful gun owners to continue to purchase guns while taking steps to prevent unlawful gun owners from purchasing them, specifically requiring background checks on private party sales and establishing a registry to help prevent and trace straw purchases.

I don't understand why you have to create false statements in order to make your case.
Click to expand...

You specifically blamed Indiana.

You called for end of private gun transactions.

You propose a national registry of guns and owners.

He is only following your logic to its conclusion...

yobub said:
Regarding the Illinois gun laws, @spikedaddy99 do some research. The majority of guns recovered in crimes come from out of state. Many come from Indiana, because of the proximity to Chicago and the lax gun laws there, specifically related to private party gun sales and gun shows. Private party sales don’t require a background check. Many in-state guns come through straw purchases from two gun shops that are very close to, but outside of Chicago. Close the gun show loophole, and create a purchase database that allows the police to end straw purchases, and you will go a long way to cutting off the flow of guns.
Click to expand...

MM
 
Indiana is not the problem, Chicago’s gangland is. For whatever reason, gangs have been allowed to flourish in a corrupt city government and it is pathetic.

Personally, I see Chitcago as a third world country and regard it as such. Sure there are some good folks, but......
 
yobub said:
@Bt Doctur I'm not sure why someone from New Jersey would want to throw shade at ANY place in the US, let alone a great city like Chicago, but here goes:


Chicago isn’t even close to the top of the per-capita murder rate. It gets a lot of attention because uniformed people with a political agenda like to point to it. Depending on the source, Chicago is between 10th and 25th in per capita murder rate. Sources are below.

https://madison.com/news/national/t..._ff178449-607d-5f0c-8ceb-b2155884b6fc.html#31

https://www.thetrace.org/2018/04/highest-murder-rates-us-cities-list/


Chicago does have a gang problem. It has developed out of a combination of long-term cultural issues in certain parts of town, combined with limits on policing strategies that have been enacted over time. Chicago police used to be able to "hassle" people who were hanging out - charge them with disorderly conduct, throw them in jail on that pretext, hold them overnight, then drop the charges. The cops, lawyers, judges, and gang members all knew it was a sham. It kept people in line, but wasn't constitutional. When that ended, the gangs became more bold because they knew the police couldn't do anything unless they were committing a crime.

Law enforcement efforts have been effective in arresting and convicting gang leaders, but this has left a leadership gap at the top of gangs which has broken down some of the norms that would guide how gangs behaved and how they operated. Unintended consequence of good police work, but it really contributes to the current situation. This perspective comes from a criminal defense attorney who worked many of these cases and from a Judge who hears many of these cases. They are both very close to the situation and I trust their perspective.

Chicago has a brand new mayor who is working to address the gang issue – we’ll see how it goes. I think there are enough factors that are outside of local control that the gang violence can, at best, be controlled.


Regarding the Illinois gun laws, @spikedaddy99 do some research. The majority of guns recovered in crimes come from out of state. Many come from Indiana, because of the proximity to Chicago and the lax gun laws there, specifically related to private party gun sales and gun shows. Private party sales don’t require a background check. Many in-state guns come through straw purchases from two gun shops that are very close to, but outside of Chicago. Close the gun show loophole, and create a purchase database that allows the police to end straw purchases, and you will go a long way to cutting off the flow of guns.

You can reference these sources for facts:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/chicago-gun-trace-report-2017-454016983.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...me-from/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a30d0e2546ce

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...overed-chicago-crimes-come-indiana/816399001/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2012-08-27-ct-met-gun-trace-study-20120827-story.html


“Innocent” bystanders do frequently get shot, but they also are frequently part of the same family or gathering as the targets of gang violence. I don’t have sources to support this other than anecdotes but when you listen to the news here, the bystanders are frequently on a porch with relatives, in a crowd at a party, or somehow affiliated with the targets. There are occasional stories of the true innocent bystander caught in crossfire, but it seems to be the exception.

We have seen a trend more toward expressway shootings because the neighborhoods are blanketed with police, police cameras, and shot detection technology. It is also easier to get away on the expressway. In general, these shootings miss their targets all together, but it increases the risk of true innocent bystanders getting hit. Again, unintended consequences from policing actions.


Also, before you walk away thinking I’m some liberal snowflake, I’m a certified NRA rifle instructor, a CCW permit holder, and obviously a gun owner. I’m also a person who loves the city of Chicago very much, and I get a bit frustrated with all the uniformed criticism. I ignore almost all of the political crap that people post on CSR, and I don’t have any idea why you post these things instead of talking about boating, but when you attack my town with uninformed commentary I feel the need to defend it.[OTE]
Agreed, nobody from a city in jersey like Newark commonly known as "SEWARK" doesn't have a leg to stand on, kind of like "PHILLY" another SH#@hole........
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bobeast said:
The problem is cities. How many rats can you pack into a sardine can before they start eating each other?
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Nah! Many parts of big cities are fantastic. Including places like NY, Chicago, DC, Baltimore.
The problems are generally focused in particular geographical areas where it seems to stem from a culture.
It usually isn’t the people from the safer neighborhoods heading over to those that are less safe to shoot the place up.
Problem is that politicians only care about votes so they’ll avoid the real issues, refuse to call the problem what it is and pander rather than problem solve.
Their unwillingness to confront the real cultural problems leave lots of good people trapped in dangerous places they can’t afford to get out of and they sometimes become innocent victims.
Rahm did it in Chicago and DeBlasio is doing it in NY.
There’s a reason why places like NY experienced dramatic drops in violent crime when a guy like Giuliani (not a fan of his) took the helm.
The best deterrent is fear of getting caught and going to jail. Most of us have a bit of law bending ability in our hearts but we generally avoid it because we don’t want to suffer the consequences if we were to get caught.
The best way to avoid a shooting is to take a shooter off the street before he does more shooting or becomes a victim of retaliation himself.
Not unique to cities either.
I lived in and policed the big city most of my life but live in the suburbs now and there are problem spots there also.
There are some rural $hitholes too.
 
JVM225 said:
Nah! Many parts of big cities are fantastic. Including places like NY, Chicago, DC, Baltimore.
The problems are generally focused in particular geographical areas where it seems to stem from a culture.
It usually isn’t the people from the safer neighborhoods heading over to those that are less safe to shoot the place up.
Problem is that politicians only care about votes so they’ll avoid the real issues, refuse to call the problem what it is and pander rather than problem solve.
Their unwillingness to confront the real cultural problems leave lots of good people trapped in dangerous places they can’t afford to get out of and they sometimes become innocent victims.
Rahm did it in Chicago and DeBlasio is doing it in NY.
There’s a reason why places like NY experienced dramatic drops in violent crime when a guy like Giuliani (not a fan of his) took the helm.
The best deterrent is fear of getting caught and going to jail. Most of us have a bit of law bending ability in our hearts but we generally avoid it because we don’t want to suffer the consequences if we were to get caught.
The best way to avoid a shooting is to take a shooter off the street before he does more shooting or becomes a victim of retaliation himself.
Not unique to cities either.
I lived in and policed the big city most of my life but live in the suburbs now and there are problem spots there too.
There are some rural $hitholes too.
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Thank you for your Police service brother!!
 
yobub said:
Your statement doesn't make any sense at all regarding my statements. I didn't advocate for anything of the sort.

I confirmed that Chicago has a gang problem, and stated that guns from neighboring states contribute to that problem, and supported it with facts. I proposed two solutions that would enable lawful gun owners to continue to purchase guns while taking steps to prevent unlawful gun owners from purchasing them, specifically requiring background checks on private party sales and establishing a registry to help prevent and trace straw purchases.

I don't understand why you have to create false statements in order to make your case.
Click to expand...

Okay. I tried to be more subtle but your “false statement” crack needs to be addressed.
With all due respect to your experience as an NRA instructor and permit holder you’re kind of blowing stuff out your butt here.
Big difference between shooting a gun on a range and real world experience addressing gun violence up close and personal.
Stick to the range there Cowboy.
Nothing false about my statements. I’ve done enough gun cases, seen the real effects of gun violence up close and personal, locked up enough people in my lifetime for illegal possession of guns and for crimes involving guns to know that you’re idealistic talking points are naive.
Bad guys get guns illegally. They don’t comply with laws and will go wherever they have to go to get them.
You can do whatever you want with rules to purchase guns. It doesn’t apply to them.
If you made it impossible to even buy a gun in this country the bad guys would still find a way to get them.
Stop selling all together in Indiana and the Chicago boys will get them through a pipeline from another state.
Stop selling them all together in the US and they will still get them.
There will always be some sleaze to smuggle them in to sell to the shooters or make them for them.
Look at all the Heroin and other illegal drugs that aren’t sold in this country that make it to the streets.
The bad guys don’t have any problems getting all the dope they need.
Do you honestly think it would be any different with guns?
Guns or gun laws aren’t the problem, they’re BS talking points.
The problem is a cultural one.
If you disagree, more power to you. I’ll consider the differences in our experiences and outlooks and accept it and wish you well.
Peace out!
 
All this talk of shootin' and guns got me excited. I had to go out this morning and burn up a couple boxes of ammo. I found some Osama Bin Laden targets in the garage and let him have it one more time.:)
 
The real problem is that laws regulate human conduct and for laws to work there must be VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE.

Most people are law abiding and voluntary comply with the laws. It's the small percentage of the population that doesn't believe laws apply to them, or just doesn't give a damn about laws that cause the problem.

Face it, it's illegal to shoot someone (except under a VERY limited set of circumstances) yet people shoot other people every day. Why? They just don't give a damn about the laws.
 
Gofirstclass said:
The real problem is that laws regulate human conduct and for laws to work there must be VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE.

Most people are law abiding and voluntary comply with the laws. It's the small percentage of the population that doesn't believe laws apply to them, or just doesn't give a damn about laws that cause the problem.

Face it, it's illegal to shoot someone (except under a VERY limited set of circumstances) yet people shoot other people every day. Why? They just don't give a damn about the laws.
Click to expand...
There it is, all dumbed down and easy to understand.:)
 
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