Engine hours philosophy

John Roubal

John Roubal

New Member
Apr 29, 2019
9
Boat Info
1994 230DA
Engines
5.7L Mercruiser Vortec w/Alpha 1 Gen 2 Outdrive
Hi, new boater here (soon to be). We've been looking for our first boat in the stamps area and decided on a 240 Sundancer. Granted, I am a novice of boats, but am a good analyst.

While combing thru the countless ads, I've seen people advertise "new engine" or "rebuilt engine" with 10 hours listed. When I look at pics of the engine, they're definitely not *new*.

When is an engine considered new, and when is an engine not considered new? Can they be advertised as such? Why can people magically reset the odometer?

I just want to know what I'm getting myself into.
Thanks in advance...
 
Sorry, Tampa area...
 
My theory was I did not want one new engine (purchasing a twin eng boat in my case), felt like maybe the reason the engine did not last was due to poor maintenance, so the other was soon to go? Also, did not want a 10 year old boat with 100 hours, that means lots of sitting around. Now, if you are purchasing a boat with a single engine, and they replaced the entire thing, great. In your example, sounds like they replaced the block only, and just pulled all top of the engine off and moved it to the new block. I can’t comment on that, but definitely hire a mechanic to inspect the engine and get the service records.
 
Every boat and engine are unique in that there is no standard for mandated service or care as there is in Aviation for instance. There is no way to really generalize whether or not the engine would not be reliable because the block was changed or a head was replaced. My engines only had 115 hours on a 9 year old boat in salt water but 4 years later with now just under 400 hrs I have had zero age related issues. All you can do is inspect what you can and get as much information on the maintenance and service philosophy and practices of the POs and hope for the best IMO. Take your time and only pull the trigger if your comfortable with the risk. A boat should be a blessing to your life style not a curse and its easy to get excited and end up making a huge mistake.
Good luck on your quest.
 
Thx for the reply. I don't know the exact details of the rebuild, but it's a single rebuilt 5.7 as advertised with 40 hours "on rebuild" The boat itself is a 1996 model year. He did not include a photo of the clock in the ad. Question is how many hours on the block prior to the rebuild? Does it matter? Or if it was an engine swap (another case upgraded from 5.0 to 5.7), how many true hours o. The swapped engine?

Sorry for these questions; just want to understand the norm.
 
Carpediem44DB said:
Every boat and engine are unique in that there is no standard for mandated service or care as there is in Aviation for instance. There is no way to really generalize whether or not the engine would not be reliable because the block was changed or a head was replaced. My engines only had 115 hours on a 9 year old boat in salt water but 4 years later with now just under 400 hrs I have had zero age related issues. All you can do is inspect what you can and get as much information on the maintenance and service philosophy and practices of the POs and hope for the best IMO. Take your time and only pull the trigger if your comfortable with the risk. A boat should be a blessing to your life style not a curse and its easy to get excited and end up making a huge mistake.
Good luck on your quest.
Click to expand...
Thx for the reply. I'm very comfortable and positive with a prospective boat I saw Sunday. He showed me a 4 week old work order where exhaust components (including risers, manifold tubes, etc) were replaced. I'm learning! A friend gave me some tips to look out for. Being a weekend auto mechanic, i understand and relate with some of the components mentioned, as well as have researched some of the must-dos in salt water engine maintenance.
 
John,

Congratulations on joining us boaters. We hope you will stick with it. I'm going to give you two pieces of advice you should follow, religiously, prior to purchasing a boat. The first is hire a professional marine surveyor to perform a thorough inspection of the boat, the engine and drive components and all systems. The second piece of advice is to, without fail, follow the first piece of advice.

You have to remember that the guy selling the boat may be the nicest guy you've ever met and his boat looks immaculate. But he is trying to sell a boat and he will tell you anything, and not tell you some things, to find that buyer. Don't listen and above all, try not to get too emotional about purchasing a boat. Which, in itself, is difficult as a boat purchase is all about emotion.

It's great that you are mechanical but let the professional inspect the boat. He knows what to look for. Once you buy the boat you can use your mechanical skills to learn how to maintain your new toy. For all you know the seller faked the work order on the manifolds (yep, I've seen that done) or the shop put them on wrong. My current boat had an engine built, allegedly, by a marine shop. Well, the half of the exhaust manifold bolts were finger tight and allowed the gasket to be burned through completely in several spots. A very dangerous condition on the boat. I've been boating for 50+ years and do much of my own work on my boats but I ALWAYS have the boats I buy surveyed.

As for hours, 50-100 hours per year is about what most avid boaters will put on their boats. Here in the South where we can boat year 'round our hours are on the higher side than our Northern cousins that only have a 5-6 month season. And total hours are not nearly as important as how the engine(s) and drive were maintained. A survey and oil analysis can answer a lot of that.

Lastly, if you find a boat and it's just not quite right don't be afraid to move on. There are literally hundreds of Sea Ray 240 Sundancers available. If this one isn't right the next one will be.

Best of luck and enjoy the ride.
Shawn
 
There aren't any surveyors around here who will even look at a boat unless it is a 30+ foot cruiser. Condition to the eyeball means a lot to me. You can't fake sterile.
I am the opposite of Todd. I DO want a ten year old boat with 100 hours. My 2004 270 Sundeck is up to 108 hours, with immaculate care, and cleaning of the bilge with a toothbrush. When it get to 150 hours, I will get rid of it.
 
If you google search Marine Surveyors I think you may find one willing to do the Survey. If that is still a bust then I am sure you could contract with a local boat dealer to do an inspection. This should include but not be limited to a leak down test, a compression test. If you are buying a 2004 and above they can pull all the data from SMART Craft. BTW if you are looking for a 240 there is one right here in my back yard. Fresh water, fully loaded, low hours, trailer included. Google search Trojan Landing you will see the boat. Don’t be afraid to travel to find the boat you want. Atlanta is not that far as are other bodies of fresh water to help you in your search.
 
Even new boats have problems. But new comes with a warrantee. Used it is all yours. Get it inspected by a competent person. If you have no marine people who will look at it try getting you favorite car mechanic to look at it. It will cost more but he will see things you do not. But he is not a marine mechanic and will probably miss things. Like the idea as mentioned by others get a boat dealer to look at it.
 
NorCal Boater said:
John,

Congratulations on joining us boaters. We hope you will stick with it. I'm going to give you two pieces of advice you should follow, religiously, prior to purchasing a boat. The first is hire a professional marine surveyor to perform a thorough inspection of the boat, the engine and drive components and all systems. The second piece of advice is to, without fail, follow the first piece of advice.

You have to remember that the guy selling the boat may be the nicest guy you've ever met and his boat looks immaculate. But he is trying to sell a boat and he will tell you anything, and not tell you some things, to find that buyer. Don't listen and above all, try not to get too emotional about purchasing a boat. Which, in itself, is difficult as a boat purchase is all about emotion.

It's great that you are mechanical but let the professional inspect the boat. He knows what to look for. Once you buy the boat you can use your mechanical skills to learn how to maintain your new toy. For all you know the seller faked the work order on the manifolds (yep, I've seen that done) or the shop put them on wrong. My current boat had an engine built, allegedly, by a marine shop. Well, the half of the exhaust manifold bolts were finger tight and allowed the gasket to be burned through completely in several spots. A very dangerous condition on the boat. I've been boating for 50+ years and do much of my own work on my boats but I ALWAYS have the boats I buy surveyed.

As for hours, 50-100 hours per year is about what most avid boaters will put on their boats. Here in the South where we can boat year 'round our hours are on the higher side than our Northern cousins that only have a 5-6 month season. And total hours are not nearly as important as how the engine(s) and drive were maintained. A survey and oil analysis can answer a lot of that.

Lastly, if you find a boat and it's just not quite right don't be afraid to move on. There are literally hundreds of Sea Ray 240 Sundancers available. If this one isn't right the next one will be.

Best of luck and enjoy the ride.
Shawn
Click to expand...
Good words of wisdom... thanks!
 
NorCal Boater said:
John,

I ALWAYS have the boats I buy surveyed.

Shawn
Click to expand...

^^^^This ^^^^^^. Always have a a boat surveyed, especially if you're new to boating. You'll be amazed as a newbie how much you learn about the boat and the process of examining the boat. The engine (while expensive) is just one thing that could go wrong. A competent surveyor will not only examine the boat but also tell you what the value of the boat is (the surveyor should provide you with a listing of identical boats sold). $$ well spent.
 
Try to obtain the maintenance records of any pre-owned boat you buy.

It will give you a good over all history of what has been happening during its lifetime and see if there any persistent issues.

I was happy to be able to read 7 years of maintenance records before buying the 98 290 DA which gave be a great outlook on buying an older boat and of course the survey picked up on some deferred maintenance items so the price was reduced accordingly.

On the engine hour philosophy I would like to see some well loved and care for hours on the motor. If the engine(s) are new/rebuilt ask to see some paperwork and hope they are covered by some warranty.
 
John Roubal said:
While combing thru the countless ads, I've seen people advertise "new engine" or "rebuilt engine" with 10 hours listed. When I look at pics of the engine, they're definitely not *new*.

When is an engine considered new, and when is an engine not considered new? Can they be advertised as such? Why can people magically reset the odometer?
Click to expand...
I only skimmed through the responses, so maybe I missed where someone else explained this - but if not...

"New" can mean a few different things. When you said "pics... definitely not new"... you're probably seeing a new 'block' or a rebuilt block. The block is the main part of the engine (crank/cylinders). Then there's the rest of the stuff... manifolds, risers, starter, throttle body, etc, etc. It's not uncommon to replace/rebuild the block and reuse the accessories. That is likely what you are seeing in the pics. That's a quick explanation - but you probably get the jist of it.
 
Captn TJ said:
^^^^This ^^^^^^. Always have a a boat surveyed, especially if you're new to boating. You'll be amazed as a newbie how much you learn about the boat and the process of examining the boat. The engine (while expensive) is just one thing that could go wrong. A competent surveyor will not only examine the boat but also tell you what the value of the boat is (the surveyor should provide you with a listing of identical boats sold). $$ well spent.
Click to expand...
Is there a standard rate based on boat length? I googled some the other day, and looks like most are outside a 10 mile radius. Is there such a thing as travel time?
 
Lazy Daze said:
I only skimmed through the responses, so maybe I missed where someone else explained this - but if not...

"New" can mean a few different things. When you said "pics... definitely not new"... you're probably seeing a new 'block' or a rebuilt block. The block is the main part of the engine (crank/cylinders). Then there's the rest of the stuff... manifolds, risers, starter, throttle body, etc, etc. It's not uncommon to replace/rebuild the block and reuse the accessories. That is likely what you are seeing in the pics. That's a quick explanation - but you probably get the jist of it.
Click to expand...
Yep, you understood well. Components on top of the engine were either rusty or spray painted. Sure, it's common to reuse the block, bore out the cylinders, replace most smaller moving parts. But still, the engine block is not new.
 
Once the engine is removed its so much easier to clean and paint properly. Wonder why it wasnt done then. Cost cutting, or is spray painting the quality you should expect?
 
John Roubal said:
But still, the engine block is not new.
Click to expand...

The engine block "could" be new, though. That's what I was getting at - there are many ways to freshen up an engine and give it more life and the term "new" gets thrown around all too easily... so it could be new... or a seller could loosely be using the term 'new' - when really, 'rebuilt' is the better term.

Even if someone bought a "new" block, it could simply be a re-used block that the seller/builder used... or, a "new" block could actually mean a brand new block. But that brings us back to the term 'new' being used quite loosely.

However, it's also quite possible that the boat seller had a new (reused) block put in. Even though it's technically a re-used block, from the boat seller's viewpoint, it is "new"... and truthfully, the boat seller may not really know the difference - in their eyes they bought a 'new' block.

New... used... rebuilt... whatever... as long as you do your due diligence, you'll be good. :)
 
Some words of wisdom(? maybe experience?):

- Boats are hard to sell and too easy to buy
- Sellers will NOT tell you the problems / issues with what they are selling
- Good boat owners keep detailed service records. Good boat owners that are selling their boat will throw away the good service service records related to recurring problems before they show you.
- If a seller cannot give you an itemized work order/invoice supporting their claim the engine was rebuilt - it wasn't.
- Shiny and clean is what people do to sell their boats. Don't let that make you overlook the issues.
- A mechanical evaluation can be done by a good marine mechanic. It won't be a full marine survey, but they can do an overall inspection of the engine, compression check, check the outdrive, etc. and you can pay them by the hour and they can give you a repair estimate you can use for negotiation on price.
 
LUnaCY said:
Once the engine is removed its so much easier to clean and paint properly. Wonder why it wasnt done then. Cost cutting, or is spray painting the quality you should expect?
Click to expand...
One would think, right? This was his email reply asking about rebuild: "The motor is a complete block up rebuild with new bearings, rings, etc. from a local marine builder."
 
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