$2.3 Billion budget deficit - “This is the flip side," Cuomo said. "Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich. The rich leave, and now what do you do?”
Taxes; National Debt; Balanced Budget; and the diff Between the 1% and .1% - Winter Thread
- Thread starter Boat Guy
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That guy is a friggen genius. He tells you that after the fact. What a tool.
Mentioning Ireland may be particularly relevant to the purpose of this thread. Ireland has been judged as having the second most progressive income tax regime in Europe. Some highlights:
Single rates
Income from €0-€38,550 (about $44K) 20% tax rate
Income above €38,550 40% tax rate
Universal Social Charge (health care).5% (starting at €13,000) to 11% (starting at €100K)
Pay Related Social Insurance (akin to Social Security) ~4%
Capital Gains 33%
Deposit Interest Tax (interest on savings) 41%
Capital Acquisitions Tax (gifts or inheritances) 33% subject to some small (relative to US) exemptions
In addition to income taxes, there is also Value Added Tax (VAT) (sort of an invisible sales tax) of 23% on the majority of goods.
This was a summary, the details are certainly more complicated, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland.
Ireland has chosen to favor business in the interest of economic growth, hence has very low corporate taxes that have attracted businesses as noted.
I'm not endorsing Ireland's approach, just pointing out their strategy. They are very close to having a balanced budget (they don't have much latitude given EU rules).
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FootballFan
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Explaining redistribution of wealth.
Grow the middle class - take away all the money the wealthy has and turn them into middle class.
Grow the middle class - take away all the money the wealthy has and turn them into middle class.
JVM225
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I think that’s the plan.
Timeflys
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Our GQ pm Trudeau has been busy socially re-engineering the country, spending far in excess of what he campaigned on, raised the top tax rate to 53%, resource projects have stalled and capital is fleeing the country.
Boat Guy
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Ok, let me tackle this a different way...
When I read what some are posting here, in my mind, I see predetermined responses regarding redistribution....Over-taxing the wealthy (those considered wealthy)... The ultra wealthy leaving for better tax policies for them....
All of that makes sense...It's a repeated narrative and does have a great deal of truth.... None of it comes up with a solution.
I'm going to speculate that no one has actually bothered to read the links I posted and have formed opinions deep-rooted in their beliefs. It's safe and convenient to fall back on conformation bias... I'm suggesting you neutralize your thoughts and be open to an expanded understanding.
I think most here are 1% thinking they've made it with no concerns for themselves personally. Further perpetuating the general mantras of flat-tax, everyone need to have skin in the game, not enough money for entitlements, etc... Thing is I'm right there with you...These could be my statements too... But it doesn't address the elephant in the room, the massive $22 Trillion dollar debt (That's growing) and the fact that an exponential amount of assets and wealth are owned by .1%....
If you're playing Monopoly and one person ends up with all the assets, how do you think the future of the game is going to go?
Produce more money? Inflation? A million dollar boat isn't what it used to be..
This borders on an existential question...
When I read what some are posting here, in my mind, I see predetermined responses regarding redistribution....Over-taxing the wealthy (those considered wealthy)... The ultra wealthy leaving for better tax policies for them....
All of that makes sense...It's a repeated narrative and does have a great deal of truth.... None of it comes up with a solution.
I'm going to speculate that no one has actually bothered to read the links I posted and have formed opinions deep-rooted in their beliefs. It's safe and convenient to fall back on conformation bias... I'm suggesting you neutralize your thoughts and be open to an expanded understanding.
I think most here are 1% thinking they've made it with no concerns for themselves personally. Further perpetuating the general mantras of flat-tax, everyone need to have skin in the game, not enough money for entitlements, etc... Thing is I'm right there with you...These could be my statements too... But it doesn't address the elephant in the room, the massive $22 Trillion dollar debt (That's growing) and the fact that an exponential amount of assets and wealth are owned by .1%....
If you're playing Monopoly and one person ends up with all the assets, how do you think the future of the game is going to go?
Produce more money? Inflation? A million dollar boat isn't what it used to be..
This borders on an existential question...
I think what you mean is capitalism has to work for everyone??
Boat Guy
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No, it's more like I'm screaming fire because there is a fire in our building and no one cares because they haven't felt the heat yet.... We aren't putting out the fire.
Forget the number on this graph... I'm using it because it's the closest I could find to a representation of what I'm writing. I wish I could extrapolate out in 5 yr increments for the next 3 decades and you could see how the graph, with today's policies, would look.... That little bit of thickness between the 90%th and 99th will thin out, or become inconsequential with inflation...
The 90% scream at the 1% and blame them for their woes
The 1% look to the left of the graph and claim the 90% aren't paying their share.
Meanwhile the .01% are over there being defended by the 1% and insulated by policy and amassing a staggering amount of $110 Trillion in assets.
Woody
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With the exception of 12 years since WW2 the government has spent more than it took in. One party is as guilty as the other when it comes to deficit spending. With the assumption that what our government spends needs to be spent....we can't keep adding a trillion/yr to our debt. That means some more money got to come from somewhere. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, that eliminates about the lower 50%.
I've always disliked the idea of tax increases, especially if it's justified with 'fairness'. But it's a fact if we need to increase tax revenue you have to look at where the money is. We've got .1% of our taxpayers taking in 10% of income. They are paying 18% of the income tax, but remember that small group is pulling in 1 trillion/yr, effective tax rate about 27%. I don't think Trump should have dropped the top bracket rate from 39.6 to 37, and I would go along with a change on capital gains starting at 1million. I do think Trump will find some money, like pulling our horns in fighting wars, and some things he's working on will generate some new revenue.
I think you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't why are the .1% amassing assets and wealth and what can we do about it? (a lets get them mentality) The question is why can't the 90% participate as well? We can punish the .1% all we want. It won't work. We need policies that help the 90% build their own wealth.
Boat Guy
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Before we talk about increasing taxes, we need to get serious about waste and abuse...In my opinion, it would be easy to balance a budget if the parties worked together on fiscally conservative policies that dealt with this abuse and waste.... Federally and locally...
https://www.openthebooks.com/
Boat Guy
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Ok, what policies are you suggesting? What I was stating, with existing policies, the curve is going to continue this way. How do you propose the 90% build when basically all investment instruments and access to money is controlled by the .1%
How do you propose paying down the national debt or dealing with the interest payments if we keep focusing on tax policies for the 90%?
I'm not talking about let's get them or "punishment".... The wealth is so large they can't be punished... No medical emergency, down turn, etc. is going to change their lifestyle...They are no wealth accumulating to grow for rainy days.... It's simple end over end wealth accumulation because what else are you going to do with your assets....The only impact to them is on a balance sheet, not a quality of life... In fact, I would say they wouldn't even notice it gone if it wasn't for accounting for it...
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What I see is all parties involved need to trim the fat. You have people elected to office being massively over paid most don’t even come close to working a 40 hour work week on top of life time benefits. Then add the fact that most of the time once elected to the bigger offices such as President two years into their job they start traveling the country campaigning for their next run. All of which tax payers pay for. And you are not paying just that person it’s 20 or 30 other people involved traveling with that person. ( President is just an example ) .
Then on top of that who is doing the job the people elected that person to do while they are out campaigning for their next job. Oh it’s the 100 plus people they employ that the tax payers did not elect but still pay for.
Sorry just my screwed up sence of thought.
Ed
JVM225
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The answer to debt is not to tax more, it is to cap spending.
As was previously stated, both parties spend too much.
We need a flat tax rate, an amendment to our Constitution limiting government spending to no more than they take in. We need another amendment to limit terms to no more than 12 years in Congress for any individual.
Lobbying Congress by other than individual constituents or community groups should be against the law. It’s how the politicians legalized corruption for themselves.
We’ve got a bunch of career politicians making financial decisions and then we wonder why spending and the national debt are such a mess.
We let them take money from special interests but can’t imagine why the government spends so much on ridiculous things and we pay higher drug prices for the exact same drugs than most of the rest of the world.
Lots of smart people in this country. Give more of them a chance to got to Washington to problem solve. The current system isn’t working well and hasn’t for years.
Ignore the finger pointing and rhetoric from the pundits and politicians. It’s all BS.
“The rich don’t pay enough.” “The other party will tax you too much.” Blah, Blah, Blah.
It’s all a smokescreen to keep you off the trail of the real problem. Them!
That’s why I like Trump. He’s an outsider. Don’t be fooled for a second. The Republicans hate him as much, or more than the Democrats do. They just have to be more clandestine about it.
As was previously stated, both parties spend too much.
We need a flat tax rate, an amendment to our Constitution limiting government spending to no more than they take in. We need another amendment to limit terms to no more than 12 years in Congress for any individual.
Lobbying Congress by other than individual constituents or community groups should be against the law. It’s how the politicians legalized corruption for themselves.
We’ve got a bunch of career politicians making financial decisions and then we wonder why spending and the national debt are such a mess.
We let them take money from special interests but can’t imagine why the government spends so much on ridiculous things and we pay higher drug prices for the exact same drugs than most of the rest of the world.
Lots of smart people in this country. Give more of them a chance to got to Washington to problem solve. The current system isn’t working well and hasn’t for years.
Ignore the finger pointing and rhetoric from the pundits and politicians. It’s all BS.
“The rich don’t pay enough.” “The other party will tax you too much.” Blah, Blah, Blah.
It’s all a smokescreen to keep you off the trail of the real problem. Them!
That’s why I like Trump. He’s an outsider. Don’t be fooled for a second. The Republicans hate him as much, or more than the Democrats do. They just have to be more clandestine about it.
FootballFan
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You are correct, I have not read the links. Typically there is a website for every position that includes wonderful data. I am in the data business and learned along time ago you can take data wherever you want. I need to have multiple disconnected sources when I rely on someone else doing the interpretation.
My omission that I have not read the links. Out of courtesy to you and this discussion I should, and I will.
Boat Guy
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I appreciate your honesty... I also agree that you can use / manipulate data to create a narrative. Though, I'm not looking to find data to justify my position...In fact, it was my openness to review the data that made me raise the question and extrapolate out.
As someone like yourself in the business of data, you might find the articles interesting... Further, feel free to search additional resources for yourself. In no way did I cherry pick the articles and welcome additional thought or additional information you or others might find....
Boat Guy
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Your sense of thought isn't screwed up... It would be great if we only had to concern ourselves with the office of the President...You are correct, both parties play a roll in the waste and abuse.
MonacoMike
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Just for the record, I did read your links. They are very thought provoking even though I do do not have the solution. I still believe a significant portion of the uber income are part of the anti-competitive companies I cited earlier.
One issue to add to the conversation is that another significant portion of the high income filers only file one return of that magnitude in their entire life. Usually due to selling a business or other one time high income hit, it is few that actually file a million plus income tax return year after year.
One thing tax discussions rarely discuss is that few filers stay in the bottom brackets or top brackets, most move up regularly until retirement.
MM
One issue to add to the conversation is that another significant portion of the high income filers only file one return of that magnitude in their entire life. Usually due to selling a business or other one time high income hit, it is few that actually file a million plus income tax return year after year.
One thing tax discussions rarely discuss is that few filers stay in the bottom brackets or top brackets, most move up regularly until retirement.
MM
JVM225
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Heard on the news today that NY had a net population loss of 50,000 people last year. People of means (taxpayers) are leaving, and mostly being replaced with people (taxtakers) who are a net drain on the entitlements.
