2000 410 EXPRESS (gas) Question !!!!

see ray

Active Member
Sep 28, 2008
506
Cleveland OH / LakeSide yacht club
Boat Info
NEW 05-360 DA ,
(SOLD) 06 40DA HARD TOP. 8.1L HO 420 hp L
Previous boat 05 340 DA 8.1L 370 hp
Engines
8.1L HO 420hp
V Drives
1) how is the running attatude with the gas motor ?
I would expect the boat come straight out and on plane without bow rise ????
2) what is the the cruise speed and
full throttle speed /top end speed ????
3) anything that stands out when looking to buy ???

I’m looking at a 00 410 express, to purchase
You can email me if you like at boatdude45@hotmail.com

Thanks jim
 
1) how is the running attatude with the gas motor ?
I would expect the boat come straight out and on plane without bow rise ????
2) what is the the cruise speed and
full throttle speed /top end speed ????
3) anything that stands out when looking to buy ???

I’m looking at a 00 410 express, to purchase
You can email me if you like at boatdude45@hotmail.com

Thanks jim
I have the 2001 SD 410 with 8.1 496s. The 2000 express was equipped with 7.4 454s.

I use a about a 1/4 trim and ease the throttle up to plane. There is bow rise but not bad. It takes about 20 second to be at full plane and 20 mph. I could get it done in about 10 seconds but why beat the engines up. The express would be less rise due to the engines more forward.

If your looking at the 454s, do your homework on water ingestion due to the log exhaust set up. Highlight recommend exhause lift buckets to limit back drafting moister back into the engine.

Mark
 
Thanks , I forgot about the exhaust problems in that vintage 454,s was that also on the 380 hp motors ?? Or just the 310hp ?? I will look to see if they have the 3 inch risers or if they have been updated , the boat has 460 hrs , ???


QUOTE="LG111, post: 1018939, member: 37153"]I have the 2001 SD 410 with 8.1 496s. The 2000 express was equipped with 7.4 454s.

I use a about a 1/4 trim and ease the throttle up to plane. There is bow rise but not bad. It takes about 20 second to be at full plane and 20 mph. I could get it done in about 10 seconds but why beat the engines up. The express would be less rise due to the engines more forward.

If your looking at the 454s, do your homework on water ingestion due to the log exhaust set up. Highlight recommend exhause lift buckets to limit back drafting moister back into the engine.

Mark[/QUOTE]
 
EC Is straight shaft - with the motors forward it should handle a lot different than a similar size/powered V-drive DA
 
You're contemplating going from an '06 40DA to a '00 41EC? An unusual move??
 
I use a about a 1/4 trim and ease the throttle up to plane. There is bow rise but not bad. It takes about 20 second to be at full plane and 20 mph. I could get it done in about 10 seconds but why beat the engines up.
Mark

Why only 1/4 tab? I put tabs all the way down and reach a slow plane much sooner while still being light on the throttle. She planes so easily that I've had passengers say "wow".

Since we're talking seconds here, I doubt there's much impact, but the load on your engines is greatest between hull and planing speeds. If you ever look at your fuel economy below planing speeds, it's chilling. I'd argue it's better for the engines to get over the hump as smoothly/quickly/efficiently as possible.
 
The water injestion is worse on the 380/ 385 hp motors than it is on 310/340 hp motors. This is because the injestion is caused by valve/cam overlap duration. The extra horse power came from a longer and steeper overlap, consequently causing the water reversion at low rpm's.

I know this because I owned a boat that was repowered in 2000 with the 385 hp motors and dealt with a lot of bad head and valve corrosion caused by reversion.
 
Ohhhhh you're going miss that hard top!!!!

I wish I could offer some useful info on your original question. I am exceedingly impressed with the planing and cruising capability of my 400 with 7.4's but she's no express...
 
Why only 1/4 tab? I put tabs all the way down and reach a slow plane much sooner while still being light on the throttle. She planes so easily that I've had passengers say "wow".

Since we're talking seconds here, I doubt there's much impact, but the load on your engines is greatest between hull and planing speeds. If you ever look at your fuel economy below planing speeds, it's chilling. I'd argue it's better for the engines to get over the hump as smoothly/quickly/efficiently as possible.
 
No reason to all the way down. I just like being easy on the throttles.

She planes just fine with no trim, I only need the bow down a few inches to see well so 1/4 way.
 
plowing for 10 extra seconds might be a reason...?

You can still be easy on the throttles. Easier even. Remember that easy on the throttles doesn’t necessarily mean easy on the engines. Have you tried it?
 
All is good. Here is a little background on me. From birth thru the 80s my dad owned a 12 bay AAA auto mechanic shop. So I am very comfortable with gas and diesel engine performance and there capabilities. I grew up in a yacht club and a member of one today. My cousins own and build super yachts and another is a manufacturer / supplier for yacht builders including Brunswick and saltwater is in my veins. So kinda been there done that for 50 plus years. Not being arrogant, just giving a glimpse of my background and that I fully understand how my boat and many others should perform. Sure I mess around and try different stuff, but I always come back to my standard lift off and landings. Mostly it's for the comfort of my crew and me. I am totally old school, I listen to the engines carefully and feel the boats ride like many do.

Plowing would be to much trim with bow digging in. Dragging her a$$ might be what you are suggesting... but that's not the case. The engines are just fine with plenty of 8.1 496 torque! If they where 454 carb or less then I'd agree with you. Nevetheless, there's just is no reason to beat the transmission clutch plates and engine mounts. I have seen plenty of owners jam the throttles and sooner or later they experience clutch slippage or engine alignment issues. I have seen shafts twist and break and I have seen blown heads, bent rods & etc. Generally, that's the guy trying to race everyone in there 40ft plus yachts... LOL.

Last week I did a little experiment since the water was at slack and like a mirror... from 3600 rpm ie approx 24mph at .7mpg. I slowed the rpm down by 100 every minute to see the fuel flow and speed difference. I was impressed but kinda knew that my burn rate did not change, even at approx 2200 rpm and approx 15 mph... Just barely.... on plane. Once off plane and continuing 100 rpm drops per min my burn rate got better until I was at 1000 rpm approx 7 mph and 1.5ish mpg. That was with full water and fuel.
Then I did it the other way. The burn rate after 2000 was horrible until I reached 3200, then she came back to .7 mpg. So momentum is your friend.

Oh for the diesel guys and better mpg... yes that's true but for me its not a big deal. I grew up on diesel and frankly dont like sleeping on a stinky pillow.

Oh, if I have less than a quarter tank of water, then yes I appy more trim.

Everyone has their method and mine works just fine for me and the boat.

Thanks,

Mark
 
You don't sound arrogant, you sound ruffled. I can assure that wasn't at all my intention. Look through this forum (I doubt you even have to) and you'll find that I'm the guy that on regular basis chimes into threads that veer into dogma. I offer data and experience and try to get the conversation back on-track - not as an arrogant expert, know-it all, attention-seeking troll, but someone like so many of us (you), has lots of data and experience and comes here to discuss it.

Here is a little background on me. From birth through the 80's I lived on or near a lake. My Dad had a client and family friend who had a Trojan Yacht and Wellcraft dealership and private marina. In the mid-70's, that establishment began to morph into a custom boat builder. The boats of my childhood cycled rapidly, sometimes they were trade-ins to the dealership, some were customized Trojans, and some were from-the-mold hand-built customs which from a distance were indistinguishable from Trojans but close-up were fascinating works of art. To this day, the smell of fresh resin takes me to my childhood. These boats were kept at the marina/yacht club down the street from our house, or the private marina. As a family, we lived aboard for several weeks every summer, in nearby towns or just blocks from the house. My Dad navigated with an RDF, charts, parallels, and dividers holding a navigator's pencil - tools that aren't even recognizable to my dockmates today. My Dad was eventually the Commodore of the yacht club.

As a young adult, I moved to an inland lake directly from my mother's basement and immediately bought a 23' cuddy and traveled throughout Michigan and Ohio with it. This old 400 came along in 1999. Today she's 400 hours past what dogma says is the life of gas engines in a big boat. I've lived aboard her - even through a Michigan winter. One of my keepsakes is my driver's license that states "Sea Ray Blvd" as my home. At one point I tried brokering boats on the side. It's an interesting business, and one that I wish was suited to me, but it's not. I loved being around so many boats and boaters, but I hadn't realized that it's much more about selling one's self and getting a contract signed than it is actually selling boats. I've had fuel meters since 2009. Before that I manually kept meticulous logs, including details such as cloud quantity, lunch served and water temp. I even turned it into my own website. (pre-blog) I've been on this site since launch, and was on the previous site as well, not to mention so many other forums.

Back to the discussion, yes, too little trim results in a$$-dragging, but aside from semantics, it's also plowing when you look at what the bow is doing at speeds just below plane. Any planing boat at that stage is pushing (plowing) too much water to be efficient.

I too have known boats to suffer damage under a heavy, or just improper hand. A maybe less-relevant but real-life experience is a friend of mine with a stubborn-planing twin I/O who blew a hub while straining to get on-plane. His driveline was under severe stress while his throttle was less than 3/4's open. I find that interesting.

Your description of a completely-flat consumption line doesn't match mine. Our boats have subtle differences that I'd like to compare and discuss, but I won't continue if you're not interested.
 
Oh very interested. Thanks for sharing your history. Sounds like we must be twins... similar backgrounds and the smell of fiber glassing is like my childhood time machine. My dad was commodore in 77. Actually I enjoy the smell of gas and diesel, just dont like how the smell absorbs in to clothes and bedding. I too grew up on a lake and surrounded with jet boats with metallic sparkle colors. My brother much older with cousins back then built there race boats in the garage and raced them until they peeled the glass off the bottom, no windshield so your eyes would peel back!

Seems like we have very similar mirror like backgrounds!! I wasn't ruffled but more miffed... lol. But sharing our backgrounds was very enlightening!

So RC what would you like to compare and chat about? How many hours did you say you're at on what engines? Mine just hit 1000 last week. I am confident there's another 1000 hours to go, probably 2000 more if I still have her that long.

Cheers!
 
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..the smell of fiber glassing is like my childhood time machine.

Actually I enjoy the smell of gas and diesel, just dont like how the smell absorbs in to clothes and bedding.

Ha! It's good to know that I'm not alone in that particular "fetish"! I rarely have the opportunity to smell fresh glass these days (maybe at the occasional boat show, but I find it becoming more and more rare), so when I do get a whiff, it's that much more powerful at taking me back. My Dad's friend was almost a caricature of a boat builder - almost always covered in stray fibers and smelling like a half-built boat.

Smelling raw diesel takes me to, "is a tank or hose or filter leaking?", but diesel exhaust takes me to boating - even if I'm standing next to an idling garbage truck at the curb. lol

Years ago when the spacemaker coffee maker died, I pulled it out and behind it saw the sun shining through the un-cored glass of the gunnel. That particular orange also took me back to childhood: inspecting these crazy, smelly, messy formations that were slowly becoming boats. I'm pretty sure the orange of the sun making fiberglass glow doesn't exist anywhere else on the planet.

My 400 is coming up on 1,400 hours now. My starboard engine uses a little extra fuel and likes to dirty her oil sooner than the port does. It's not her fault though - many years ago, cyl #7 took in a little water from a series of events that began at the #$%&@ mechanical fuel pump. Compression is a little low there, but not enough to be a real problem. Otherwise, neither engine shows any sign of wanting to retire anytime soon.

The meters I installed almost a decade ago now are Garmin GFS-10's. They've provided massive amounts of information to me that honestly, I thought I already knew. They've guided me a lot though, and unlike a lot of people who seem to glance at them once and never again, I monitor consumption constantly. This year hasn't been a good one for data though. I made some significant changes to my NM2K network, and also noticed that the meters go wonky after about 30 mins of cruising. I reached out to Garmin to ask if they thought maybe I have issues with the network itself, or if the meters could be wearing out. They answered, "yes, probably one of those reasons". :mad:

I'm assuming you data is from Smartcraft pulse count? I've heard some people complain about the accuracy of injector pulse metering. What's your impression? I'm leaning toward blaming the GFS-10's themselves for inaccuracy I've been seeing, so instead of buying them all over again, I'd much rather invest in some Fox gateways to get that and more data from the ECM's.
 
Oh yes the orange glow thru the glass with the weave of fiber like a braille feel. The smell saltwater mixed with you name it.. it's an emotional time machine for sure. Like pine would be for those that went to camp, or the smell of musty lake water near lily pads!

Yes i have SmartCraft fuel read. I agree the pulse is not as accurate as online fuel sensors. My starboard burns 1 gallon more per hour than the port. So does my buddies. So I would point to #7. Its just what these boats do.

What I do know and only care about is my best rpm speed for best bure rate. That only took about 2 or 3 rides and now I know. Based on with or against the current direction I gain or lose, but for the most part out of my control unless I follow tides like a sail boat... NOT.

My big thing is dialing in the rpms to match where the analog looks matched but not. However, i can hear when they match. The other part of managing fuel is knowing what I have remaining. That's huge in my book. You know the old rule. 1/3 out, 1/3 back and 1/3 reserve or safety. I hold 335 gallons. When I hit 200 burned I seek for refueling.

When I top off I am approx 10% off. Should be less than 5%, but I blame that on the pulsing and how that's converted in the computer to see digitally. FloScan which I have had on previous boats was always with in 1%. And they are use those in the aircraft industry for very understandable reason I might add.

1400 hours in my book is nothing. Change the fluids and the block and heads can last a lifetime. Everything else has a much shorter lifespan.... exhaust systems just take the brunt of abuse and fuel pumps, belts, plugs, injectors, carbs, wires and etc. Well that's just part of the boating buck$.

Mark
 
When I top off I am approx 10% off. Should be less than 5%, but I blame that on the pulsing and how that's converted in the computer to see digitally.

Damn, that's what I suspected from what others have said, but it's not at all what I wanted to hear. Until this year, my flow meters got as close as 2%. A margin of error of 10% would meet or exceed the range of my economy.

My previous MFD could only calculate econ to the 10th. I could manually calculate it further, but the rounding actually worked for me. I would adjust speed and trim to achieve .75 sMPG, which my display would round to .8. When it fell to .7 (.74 or lower), I would re-adjust. Now all 3 of my MFD's are capable of the hundredths, so that reset my OCD. Now I find myself aiming to reach .77 instead of .76. The calculation I don't do is how much (little) cash/fuel that actually saves! It's more of a game.

I'd really like to display ECM data digitally, but I could never justify replaced the flow meters and adding Fox gateways to do that. My tachs are ridiculous. Just tapping on my stbd tach makes the needle swing 1,000 RPM!

The other part of managing fuel is knowing what I have remaining. That's huge in my book. You know the old rule. 1/3 out, 1/3 back and 1/3 reserve or safety. I hold 335 gallons. When I hit 200 burned I seek for refueling.

I didn't realize that Smartcraft, at least back then offered "fuel burned" data. That's good. One of the ways my meters paid for themselves was by allowing me to travel much lighter than I ever had. Most of my trips are <35 miles total, so I have no issue heading out with 130 gallons onboard. The gauges show 1/4 or less at that point, so in the past, they would've compelled me to stop at the fuel pier to take on 1,000 lbs of fuel at whatever the prices were that day.

One of the differences between the 400 and 410 DA is that the 400 water tank is aft, basically between the fuel tanks. When I run loaded, she's stern-heavy. There are times (seas capable of ventilating the props) that I appreciate having the option to carry aft ballast. There are also times that I'd like to have it up-front... I guess I'd need more time on 410's to know which is overall better. It's no question on the diesel, at least IMO. I find the bow-high attitude of a diesel 410DA really annoying.
 
Thanks LG111 and Roller, you've made me hit the watch thread button. I am enjoying reading your experiences and learning. I have the 380hp 7.4's and sounds like I am running them just like Roller is running his with the same results. I could get on plane without tabs if I wanted to, but it just seems (feels) easier on the throttles and boat using them. I am so impressed with how my 400 is all around compared to the 310 I had. I don't have the fuel meters yet, but doing the math I'm getting between .74 and .77 mpg. I usually cruise around 3400 rpm.
 
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