410 Sundancer/Express Cruiser and 400 Sundancer/Express Cruiser **Official Thread**

Today I get to reply to my own question.
1998 450 Sundancer vs 410 Sundancer.
It was pouring rain today so I really couldn’t / didn’t inspect the outside very well but both looked about the same. The bottom paint was a little rough but so was every other boat in the lot.

So inside I’ve already pretty well examined two 450’s. One mahogany and one “blonde”. I like the blonde better but both has flawless cabinets and trim especially below deck. The 450 is just a little bigger everywhere. Both 450’s had washer /dryer and two full heads. The soft head is just a little smaller all around. Still big enough for me to get in the showers fully dressed and move around. The aft head in the 410 was missing the shower.

The aft state room is quite a bit more roomy and less cave like. Adults would be more comfortable.

The salon cooking area is a bit larger and has more storage area than the 410. Both of the 450’s came with everything for eating and serving, even wine glasses. Probably not standard stuff but a nice touch anyway.

The forward stateroom is slightly larger with larger closets. Just a little bit more storage areas around the bed and sides.

The salon upholstery in both 450’s was about the same with the seating areas nice and soft comfy.

There were three TVS in the mahogany one and four in blonde. Blonde had all flat screens. Only one in the mahogany one.

The entrance to the salon seemed steeper in the 410 bug it the same style and position as the 450’s. Different color fo some reason.

The 450 cockpit is a little shorter than the 410 but about the same width.

Standing at the helm the 450 is like the bridge of a battle ship where the 410 is more like a battle cruiser. It’s still a long way to the bow. Basically the same layout. I did like the 410 helm seat better.

The 410 had a nice flat screen just below and ahead of the aft sink. It must have had legs to rest upon or something to hang it on. It surprised me when I opened the doors, so it must have been a modified storage thing. Nice touch however.

Blonde had updated navigation equipment. Mahogany and the 410 had OEM it still worked by was pretty primitive.

The 450’s were both 3126 Cats while the 410 had 454 gas motors.

The 410 canvas was similar but lacked the forward enclosure. It may have been missing or out for repair. It sure let the rain in. The helm had a custom cover over most of it.

The 410 had a bit nicer upholstery in that it felt like ultra sweade.

The 410 swin platform is slightly smaller but about the same shape.

I couldn’t tell much about the props as it was really raining. All had trim tabs with only a little corrosion.

The worst thing was the 410 had some really bad delamination of the mahogany cabinetry. I don’t really know what the fix for this is as there are curves everywhere and at lest six areas had delam. I’ve seen this before and it’s tough to fix. 3M weatherstrip cement is good but even it will release later on. I took pictures if anyone is interested.

As I expected the 450 is slightly larger in many spots. So in my mind. It’s worth the extra cost. But that’s just me and no offense to the 410 owners here.

The 410 was bare of anything in the storage and salon areas with exception of a couple PFD. and fire extinguishers and ropes. There was no extra equipment at all. So not a good selling point to me.

So that’s my take on these boats. They were sitting side by side so it was easy to get from one to the other. Except for getting wet.

Correct me if I’m wrong or mis reported. There was a lot to see on these boats.

Byron
 
Dumb question about aft cabin berth on the 410:
Has anyone found a quick removal/re-install for the corner backrest cushion.
I decided to take a little siesta back there and although the bolster backrests that are on the starboard side under the TV and cabinet remove easily to add length to the bed, the corner piece is fixed in place. It would be nice to get that corner piece out of there when the couch converts to a bad.
 
I look at things like this, someone put it in there so one way or another I’ll get it out.

Applying “boat logic” it possible it’s glued in. That would make it a PIA to remove cleanly without damage. However if you can poke around it may have push pins. We call them Christmas trees in the car world. Some of these can be really tough to remove as the “ circular branches” are very large. You simply have to use a larger pry bar as we say.

I really didn’t notice this today as I didn’t remove cushions. Sometimes upholstery is relatively soft and you can push fingers deep into it to feel for fasteners. Heaven forbid it to be simply bolted in. That would be “boat illogical” in my mind. LOL There May be some type of blind fastener on the back side.

The 450 I looked at today has a badly sunbaked dash cover. I poked and gently pried and sure enough it had blind push lock fasteners. It will take only a small prybar to get it it off. I’m not sure about what the base material but I bet it’s a waterproof board about 1/4” thick. It will be an easy job to make a new cover for it. I made a head board for the front headliner in my hot rod that I vinyl wrapped and velcroed in place. It survived 25k miles without any adjustment. It even had a molded dent for attaching the rear view mirror. Looked factory.

Try to get a hand around behind and feel for fasteners. You could use a mirror wand or if a friend has an automotive bore scope that would be ideal. You might even be able to rent one from a large auto parts store. You rent it then bring it back and get your fee back. Best deal there is in one time use tools. I do,it often.

Byron
 
So I need some help. I have vacuflush issues. I have rebuilt everything and still have a leak. Using the vacuum gauge I have isolated the leak to the hose that runs from the vacuum generator to the connection under the salon floor. So it looks like I've got to replace the hose from the generator to this this connection. Anyone ever done this and how easy is it to get that hose replaced with a new hose. There is no easy access to it .
 
I’m not really familiar with the boats yet but we do RV work occasionally at the shop I work in.

You could try and disconnect the hose and see if you can move it for and aft. If so, you can possibly slip a pipe nipple into the hose and tightly tie wrap it with a couple of them. Tape it up smoothly. The do the same with the new hose. Then pull them through. You might have to just try a fish tape instead. We have done this on RV stuff. If the hose has been sealed with sealer you probably will,have to re route the new hose.

That’s the best I can do. Good luck.

Byron
 
The 450 I looked at today has a badly sunbaked dash cover. I poked and gently pried and sure enough it had blind push lock fasteners. It will take only a small prybar to get it it off. I’m not sure about what the base material but I bet it’s a waterproof board about 1/4” thick. It will be an easy job to make a new cover for it. I made a head board for the front headliner in my hot rod that I vinyl wrapped and velcroed in place. It survived 25k miles without any adjustment. It even had a molded dent for attaching the rear view mirror. Looked factory.



Byron

The 450DA dash cover is a rigid blow molded plastic foam. It is attached with about 8 "Christmas tree" fasteners with barbs on both ends. You can actually grab it and work your fingers under the aft edge (near the steering wheel) and lift it off the fiberglass. If you can get a thin flat bar and work it under the aft edge you can lever the cover up and off the Christmas tree fasteners without damaging t he cover of marring the edge of the fiberglass underneath. Do not change or complicate the way the dash cover attaches.......it has to be removed to access or remove the top gauge panel.

The plastic cover is painted, not gelcoat. The best fix is to remove it, remove the compass and then prime and paint it with a 2 part urethane automotive paint like AwlGrip, PPG or Dupont Imron. That gives you a permanent, hard finish that will last indefinitely.

You might want to avoid posting questions for one model in a thread dedicated to a different model. I just saw this 450DA question by accident since I usually don't read the 400/410DA.

Your comparison of the 450 and 410 is far from complete until you actually run both boats and examine the fuel consumption numbers. The 450 is noticably bigger, heavier, smoother and better handling in choppy seas than the 410. The 450 has a 2 level swim platform which adds a lot of exterior space and utility when boarding from a dock or from the water. The 450 with Cat diesels burns about 22.6 GPH of $3/gal fuel at cruise while t he 410 burns close to 2X that of $4/gal fuel.
 
I do know better than to wade into threads with conflicting info. Somewhere along the way there was a comparison of the two boats. I just happened to visit both side by side on dry land. Exactly what you said I’ve heard several times so I’m inclined to believe you. Especially the economy of fuel. If this deal goes through I will test the big boat for sure.

Thanks for the tip. I did pry it up a bit and I could see the first Christmas tree. The automotive world is full of them and they are readily available in many sizes. The dash cover indeed may be a blow molded part. I can do the finishing and paint prep but I can not be around any paint that uses isocyanate hardners so my grand son can paint it. He has the filtered air respirator and body suits.
It’s the only real repair required that I can see.
The electronics are all OEM but the sales rep. said they at worked.

Byron
 
Anyone know this boat? Just tire kicking still, but there is so little available locally in upstate NY that I'm expanding my search the same way I did with our current 290.

http://www.baltimoreboatingcenter.c...0-sundancer-baltimore-essex-maryland-6605478/

There is a user here (mtnandy) selling a 98 400 diesel. Had I not gone with gassers I would have likely jumped at his. Send him a PM. He's quite responsive. I think you'll find his pricing a little more favorable than the one you linked...
 
There is a user here (mtnandy) selling a 98 400 diesel. Had I not gone with gassers I would have likely jumped at his. Send him a PM. He's quite responsive. I think you'll find his pricing a little more favorable than the one you linked...
I’ll do that. Thanks!
 
Guys, my fresh water pump stopped working this weekend. I see the power switch in the 12v section of my panel but I didn't see any breaker to see if had just tripped. Can someone help with that breaker location? I'm hoping its something simple but not sure what to troubleshoot besides confirming power and ground. Also, if I do need to replace the pump, what do you recommend for a make/model?
 
Guys, my fresh water pump stopped working this weekend. I see the power switch in the 12v section of my panel but I didn't see any breaker to see if had just tripped. Can someone help with that breaker location? I'm hoping its something simple but not sure what to troubleshoot besides confirming power and ground. Also, if I do need to replace the pump, what do you recommend for a make/model?

Do you have this panel and did you check to see if any were thrown? I'm wondering if the water pump could be the "aft pump" breaker? Did you check under the helm as well? On my boat I only have fuses/breakers located in these two locations. Not a single breaker in the engine room other than the hard-mount rigs on the motors/generator.

Now that I look at this you have to wonder where the AC pump breaker might be though. Hmmm...

 
Do you have this panel and did you check to see if any were thrown? I'm wondering if the water pump could be the "aft pump" breaker? Did you check under the helm as well? On my boat I only have fuses/breakers located in these two locations. Not a single breaker in the engine room other than the hard-mount rigs on the motors/generator.

Now that I look at this you have to wonder where the AC pump breaker might be though. Hmmm...


Just as I hit post...I had a thought. I believe the switches in our main panel (in the cabin) are breakers? Not just on/off. I could be wrong here.....but if your fresh water pump blows the breaker the switch will/should throw open in the cabin.

I've never had one of those pop so I could be off here...
 
Switches in the panel are breakers.
If it’s tripped you have to figure out why that happened. I don’t think I’ve ever had a fresh water pump breaker trip.
If that switch/breaker isn’t tripped then the next thing to do would be to check for power at the pump.
If you need to replace it, check with the manufacturer to see what the direct replacement would be.
It’s may be a good time to go with something that pumps more gallons per minute (that’s my plan if and when mine dies), but if you do that, just make sure that the replacement doesn’t draw more amps than the wiring or breaker is rated for.
 
The breakers on a Sea Ray OEM panel are switch duty breakers meaning that they can be switched on and off without hurting or wearing the contacts, but they also provide circuit protection for what they power. There are usually aren't separate on-off switches and breakers for water pumps.

The silver toggle switch in post#1693 above doesn't appear to be from Sea Ray but probably added by a previous owner.
 
Guys, my fresh water pump stopped working this weekend. I see the power switch in the 12v section of my panel but I didn't see any breaker to see if had just tripped. Can someone help with that breaker location? I'm hoping its something simple but not sure what to troubleshoot besides confirming power and ground. Also, if I do need to replace the pump, what do you recommend for a make/model?
Dan,
I replaced that pump for the PO about 3 years ago. I don't recall any fuses other than the breakers on the panel. When it was INOP, I checked for power for him first, and that confirmed the pump was bad...
 
The silver toggle switch in post#1693 above doesn't appear to be from Sea Ray but probably added by a previous owner.

I can confirm this. It's actually an aftermarket waste pump installed by a prior owner. Not legal around these parts...
 
Thanks guys, on this fresh water pump, no breakers/switches were off so I am stumped. Worked great one day, nothing the next. I'm gonna mess with it and see if I can get it to work especially if only three years old. I had a bunch of people and a big cooler on the cockpit deck so didn't raise it to look yet. Where is this thing mounted? Also, what GPM should I shoot for? I wouldn't mind having more water pressure. The washdown at the anchor locker wasn't ever very strong. (Carter, appreciate your insights! I need to move the boat back next to you since you know it better than me!)
 

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