I voted with my wallet........

northshore said:

Mike you do realize your cat was inspecting your work on his/her new steps right?
I've got one of these cat things. I know how they operate.

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Yeah, she's one of two cats we have and she's definitely "my cat". When my wife and I walk down to the river bank she's right there with us. She'll lag behind 20-30 yard then come roaring past us just to beat us to the river bank. Now that she's been up and down the steps a few times she does it on a dead run.

It's funny, she's very good at catching birds, the male, who is about 12 years old doesn't care about birds but brings in a mouse or two a week that he's caught down by the river. He brings them into the house and eats them in the bathroom. I guess he would rather leave the mess on the tile floor than on carpet or the hardwood floors.

MLauman said:

The only thing this insulting mockery has been 'effective' at is pissing off a lot of people and deepening the very divide that some claim it purported to resolve.

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Amen Brother.... I said that same thing about 75 posts ago.

Gofirstclass said:

At the beginning of the Seahawks/Titans game today both teams elected to remain in the locker rooms until after the singing of the National Anthem.

I didn't realize it until I had switched over from the other game I was watching, and my wife read a short blurb about it and read Pete Carroll's statement.

I feel every player and coach has a right to speak out and/or protest about whatever the cause du jour is. When they choose to do that protest by not being present for the National Anthem that pi$$es me off. They are causing an affront to our country, the very country that affords them the opportunity to make millions of dollars a year, and the country that I spent 7.5 years defending during the Vietnam war era. .

So, I voted with my wallet. I turned off the damned TV, took down the "12" flag I have flown for every game and went to Costco. Fugem. My small protest may go unnoticed by the NFL, but if enough people who are offended put their principles ahead of their enjoyment of watching a bunch of spoiled millionaires play their sport, maybe the NFL and others will take notice.

Attendance across the NFL is down this year. http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-a...ce-down-2017-9 Maybe the NFL is going to realize that people vote with their wallets. We are already tired of paying $50 for parking, $150 for a seat, $15 for a beer and $15 for a hot dog.

Now please notice that I did not address what Trump tweeted about this. I don't care about his opinion. I also didn't comment about what Goodell and the team owners said in response to Trump. I don't care.

Please don't turn this into a Republican vs Democrat thread. That's not what it was intended to be.


NFL RULES!! The specific rule pertaining to the national anthem is found on pages A62-63 of the league rulebook. It states:

“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”

So, according to this, the sitters, kneelers, and disrespectful should be punished accordingly.

So, Goodell, are you going to follow your own rules or continue to be the wimp you are appearing to be?

Comments?

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The flag symbolizes the very right to express ones views peacefully as they see fit. It is in fact celebrating the flag and honoring what this country stands for to do so.

As far as the NFL rule goes, "should" is not the same thing as shall. Should is a suggestion not a requirement.

Boston-boater said:

... as they see fit.

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Good. Then they can do it on their dime.

If I used company time to demonstrate disrespect of our nation in front of customers...

Try disrespecting the Korean Flag and see what happens

keokie said:

If I used company time to demonstrate disrespect of our nation in front of customers...

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My point exactly!

I have no problem at all with them taking a knee to try to get their point across. (Though they never have specifically stated what their point is.)

I do have a real problem with them disrespecting our flag and our country the way they are.

I don't think old Kopperdink thought this through very well, now have the other copy cat players because all they've done is pi$$ off a whole bunch of former NFL fans.

And, after pi$$ing off a bunch of fans, what has changed? What have they accomplished?

Boston-boater said:

The flag symbolizes the very right to express ones views peacefully as they see fit. It is in fact celebrating the flag and honoring what this country stands for to do so.

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No, the flag symbolizes the concept that the government will not prohibit freedom of expression. It does not prevent an employer from establishing and enforcing a code of conduct deemed appropriate.
Which raises the question - why would the NFL allow it's players to protest alleged police brutality on company time while not allowing (for example) the Dallas Cowboys to show support for fallen police officers? And the obvious answer is that the NFL (like much of corporate America) is so intimidated by the left that they are blind to their own hypocrisy.

Gofirstclass said:

I have no problem at all with them taking a knee to try to get their point across. (Though they never have specifically stated what their point is.)

I do have a real problem with them disrespecting our flag and our country the way they are.

I don't think old Kopperdink thought this through very well, now have the other copy cat players because all they've done is pi$$ off a whole bunch of former NFL fans.

And, after pi$$ing off a bunch of fans, what has changed? What have they accomplished?

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I believe another member posted it earlier in this thread, but if you still believe "they never have specifically stated what their point is," you're willfully ignoring it. Here, again, is the original statement from Kaepernick, one that other players as well as individual coaches and some management teams have echoed:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

MLauman said:

No, the flag symbolizes the concept that the government will not prohibit freedom of expression. It does not prevent an employer from establishing and enforcing a code of conduct deemed appropriate.
Which raises the question - why would the NFL allow it's players to protest alleged police brutality on company time while not allowing (for example) the Dallas Cowboys to show support for fallen police officers? And the obvious answer is that the NFL (like much of corporate America) is so intimidated by the left that they are blind to their own hypocrisy.

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I have no clue whether Kaepernick researched before he chose his course of action, and some may consider it a loophole, but as far as I've been able to research, there's no rule requiring players be present--much less behave a certain way--during the anthem, thus no League-defined disciplinary protocol. So it does indeed come down to the court of public opinion, and how much the NFL is willing to do internally vs. externally. So far, it seems willing to risk at least a little more fan dissatisfaction, and potentially a little more loss of revenue, as evidenced by outcomes in the last week, when the NFL declined to create such a rule.

To another part of your point, though, there are indeed very specific rules about what players may wear during games, the reason the League has given on multiple well-publicized occasions in the last several years when it has prohibited player and team requests for specialized helmet decals, uniform patches, arm bands, cleats, and other similar items, or disciplined players after the fact for non-compliance. (There are examples of lax enforcement, of course, but the NFL has been fairly consistent over all.)

So I have a question: assume the League permitted individual players to wear custom helmet decals, uniform patches, arm bands, cleats, etc. to express support for various causes. How would you (the collective "you" of posters who disagree with kneeling during the anthem) feel about BLM helmet decals? Trump/Pence patches? Swastika arm bands? LGBTQ rainbow cleats? 9/11 memorial socks? American Heart Association gloves?

If you would support some, but not all, come clean: it isn't about HOW or WHEN but rather WHAT. Quit blowing smoke saying you don't know what the message even is, or they picked the wrong way or the wrong time to share it, and just say you don't believe racial disparities or oppression exist (some of you have already--thank you for considering the crux of the matter)....and keep voting with your wallet while you're at it.

The stronger message will have greater influence over the future of the players and the NFL as a whole, right?

Trflgrl,

The league does not need a specific rule about the anthem to enforce a position of respect as it deems fit.

To some of your other points, like Kap's statement... The U.S. Flag does not in any way represent what he complains of. Can you name a single law or constitutional value/principle that "oppresses black people and people of color"? Has Kap, or any of the other kneelers?

And nobody is on paid leave for murder. We have a judicial system that more fairly than anywhere else on earth (but still plenty imperfectly) intends to find truth and justice regardless of race. Every single police shooting is reviewed heavily. FOIA allows every single American to review each and every one of the review processes. The courts have disagreed murder took place in many of these shootings. The officers convicted of murder have been jailed regardless of the race of the officer or victim. These are not the processes of an oppressive nation.

Just because we can't find truth and justice in every incident, does not at all mean the flag and anthem fail in any way to stand for both. So, the kneelers are choosing to make their disagreeable statement in front of customers while on their very, lucrative company dime. Backlash from the public was obvious and the league would have been wise to stop it.

I don't care if there is a league requirement or not. They are still disrespecting our flag, our country, and our veterans. And a good point was brought up a few posts ago that I hadn't thought of. The NFL restricts players from wearing certain unapproved apparel or stickers, etc. I remember a few years ago D' Angelo Williams (Steelers) wore pink shoes or socks commemorating breast cancer awareness as his mother had breast cancer. He was fined by the NFL and forbid to wear them again, thus the pink hair. But the NFL is ok with players disrespecting our flag?

Boston Boater and Trflgrl
What’s next then in this cycle of disrepute, we turn our backs to the raising of the flag with the military honor guard present and at attention? Where does hypocrisy and disrespect end? Standing to the raising of yours and my flag is simple respect to a country that has given so much to all and has structured it’s very basic tenants to be equal for all. I am appalled that these few moronic showboats have to take their issues to the public in such a fashion and method. In their economic “bracket”, if they were so passionate about it, why not purchase a prime time television slot specifically for their issue? Oh, now that will really reveal the true passion of their quest wouldn’t it…… But, no that would impact their precious lifestyle and pocketbook; there are limits to "commitment" right? Seems they would rather drag the sport down as a nearsighted/myopic means to no end.

Regarding their basis to being "oppressed"– this country is not unique to the term however we seem to believe and behave as if one particular race is greatly suffering from oppression in these modern times uniquely here in the US. I would argue that this “oppression” is, for the most part, self-imposed and rather than sulking as a group each should become a component of a thriving society as an individual. I’ll give you one example: the Asians were forcibly brought in to the US in the early to mid 1800 and indentured as essentially slaves to build the railroad; they were beaten, murdered, and horribly treated. Then during World War II the Asians were interned in camps under horrid conditions. Where are the protests and “woe is me” from this culture? Where is the "police brutality"? You won’t find it as the culture has embraced the tenants of this country and have become greatly successful and a contributing part of our melting pot.

It appears that the point continues to be lost. It's not about what you think it is what the players who are taking part in this form of protest think. You say there is no racial oppression, they say there is. Their salary has nothing to do with it. If the NFL chooses to honor what this country stands for and allow players to take knee during the anthem as a form of protest, then more power to them. The flag, and the anthem are not things unto themselves but symbols of the ideals of this country. The only way to disrespect them is not not live up to what they represent.

But as you say, you are free to vote with you wallet.

NFL owners are business owners. Been a pretty good deal for most of them, just look at how values of franchises has increased. But make no mistake, it is a business, not a public service.

I really don't think owners are sitting around discussing societal issues. Whether to support or not.

They do realize that they have a product they have to deliver. They have to deliver successful teams - which are dependent on keeping a group of 20 something year olds, who just got contracts of several hundred K to several million, motivated.

I am sorry - when we start looking for moral leadership on issues facing our country from a group of kids like this I shudder. This is not leadership - this is visibility.

An owner is sitting there saying - if I don't let these kids do their thing, they may decide to play at 90% - or 80%. Remember for the most part you cannot depend on NFL players to show the best judgment.

Owners took a gamble, they could let this go on - and keep their employees highly motivated. I think they miscalculated the customer reaction.

The right of free speech does NOT apply to the workplace. Multiple court cases has instantiated that fact. The employer can determine what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

Free speech in our founding documents is about the Government not being able to suppress free exchange of ideas. Not the employer.

Mark

Boston-boater said:

It appears that the point continues to be lost. It's not about what you think it is what the players who are taking part in this form of protest think. You say there is no racial oppression, they say there is. Their salary has nothing to do with it. If the NFL chooses to honor what this country stands for and allow players to take knee during the anthem as a form of protest, then more power to them. The flag, and the anthem are not things unto themselves but symbols of the ideals of this country. The only way to disrespect them is not not live up to what they represent.

But as you say, you are free to vote with you wallet.

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I disagree with the statement that allowing kneeling is what this country stands for.

What this country stands for is the freedom from the government suppressing the voices of the people.

These players can voice their opinions however they want when they are not at work.

Maybe you can explain this too me.

How is the topic of local police (city or county) tied to the Flag, or even the federal government? Protest at the city council meeting - but I fail to see the connection to protesting the national anthem. The dots just do not connect!

If the owner of the company, in this case the NFL, is not telling the players to stop what they are doing, then why should you. They are not disrespecting the flag or the country. People need to stop wearing the flag on your sleeve and start living up to the ideals for which it stands.

Boston-boater said:

If the owner of the company, in this case the NFL, is not telling the players to stop what they are doing, then why should you. They are not disrespecting the flag or the country. People need to stop wearing the flag on your sleeve and start living up to the ideals for which it stands.

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Look at the title of the thread.

Not trying to offer any guidance to the players -- just saying "voting with my wallet".

The NFL doesn't own anything. Each team is owned individually - the NFL is a team funded organization to administer the rules of the league.

The management of the NFL serves at the pleasure of the team owners.

This is where we disagree. Both in principal and logic. And in this country - it is ok for us to disagree without any repercussions or fallout. The very freedom of this discussion is why we should respect the country that provides the ability for us to have this open - sometimes not harmonious discussion.

In principal - the Flag is not a "sleeve item" it is the symbol of our country which provides the very freedoms that allow the entertainment career of professional sports. Why are there no professional sports leagues in communist countries?

In logic - what is the connection between the country of the USA, the federal government -- and an employee of a city, township, or a county?

Boston-boater said:

If the owner of the company, in this case the NFL, is not telling the players to stop what they are doing, then why should you. They are not disrespecting the flag or the country. People need to stop wearing the flag on your sleeve and start living up to the ideals for which it stands.

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Maybe this is the old way of looking at things....the work place isn't for you to standup(or kneel down) and start preaching about whatever it is you feel like. Those ball players are being paid for that time, there are plenty of rules that apply to them both off the job and on.

If individual owners or the NFL are letting it slide the reality is 'it's business'. This is a case of faux support due to a twisted arm. The NFL has gambled this route will cost them less than the players deciding to take a knee for a week or two.

So whats it to us, for christsake whats so hard,....whats it to us? That's simple....we're the customers, all this bullshit isn't what we're paying for, it's not what we turn on the TV to see.

Don't take that to mean folks may not be interested in the same issues...but there's a time and a place. When I turn on the TV I could give a shit what color anyone is, what their political views are, their sexual prefernce, or gender identity....plaaay ballll.

Some folks say Colin Kaepernick is 'being heard', he's getting attention....I think he is, but it's noticed in the same way as a riot when shits set afire, going to do more damage in the long run than good.

Hell of a way to reach out to others and say 'we need to talk more'.

I am going to go back to what I said about 175 posts ago. Kaepernick is an idiot. Like many, that want to believe cops are out to beat and kill every person of color, he looked at the incidents involving the police and individuals of color (because lets face it....if it's police and whites, nobody gives a shit, it's not news) and someone with a cell phone camera to record it, and all of a sudden, Oh My God! It's open season, the Cops are out to kill every black person in America.

Are there some bad cops....absolutely! Are there black criminals, absolutely! Are there white criminals....absolutely! But our justice system has been working pretty well for what? a hundred and fifty years? The worst thing our society has done is put a camera in a cell phone and place it in the hands of every man, woman and child over the age of 4. (Isn't it ironic that there is video of Orlando Castile getting shot but I don't recall any video of the police officers that were ambushed and killed in Dallas and Baton Rouge) The video that is taken during many of these incidents is handed over to the media....another business that cares little about the "truth" and more about ratings and that equals MONEY. Most all of the cases that were recently brought to the public's attention containing in the death of a black "suspect", would have been avoided if the "suspect" had simply complied with the commands of the police officer(s). Throw in a home made video edited by the media to incite the strongest reaction (ratings), add in an irresponsible President who publically states, "....Trevon Martin could have been my son", and you have the makings of a riot....which is OK with the media because its sensational news and sensational news generates ratings and that makes MONEY.

Now take a moron like Kaepernick who, in his short (and most likely over) NFL career continuously showed his poor judgement (watch any of his post-game interviews) takes a knee for what he thinks is a call for justice and you see the reaction of a pissed off nation. Nobody gives a rat's ass anymore about why these babys are protesting....it is now about the method of the protest because that is NOW what is newsworthy. ("Yeah, I'm gonna take a knee during the anthem cuz a brother got shot." "He was robbing a bank at gunpoint at the time." "Don't matter, the Po-Po could have just shot the gun out of his hand.") The media has stopped showing the players and the National Anthem pre-game choosing a Doritos commercial in stead. Because the media at least has realized, "Uh, Oh....people have stopped watching the NFL. If people don't watch the NFL our sponsors won't want to buy ad time and, Geez, we get a LOT of money from selling that ad time.

Just suppose for a moment that Kaepernick had held a press conference and stated, "Thank you all for coming today. I called this press conference to express my indignation of the events happening in our country involving the police in some cities and the treatment of people of color. I feel it is unjust and blah, blah, blady-blah, blah..... It would have gone much farther to validate his feelings, would not have pissed off hardly anyone, and he would probably have a job right now. He made an error in judgement. as has anyone stupid enough to follow him.

I've had enough of this topic. The more we discuss it the more we validate it and it needs to just go away. If the Kaepernicks and Bennetts and the rest of them feel it is so bad here in America that they feel the need to protest, I challenge them to go find a better country that will allow them to play a game for the kind of money they make here. And when they do find that country see how protesting their flag and anthem works out for them.

Shawn