Patriots or Turncoats?

Gofirstclass

Gofirstclass

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Apr 20, 2010
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Our government has been embarrassed several times in the recent past through the release of classified government documents. The most recent of these was done by Wikileaks. About a week ago they released almost 9,000 classified documents that someone within the government illegally delivered to Wikileaks. These documents outlined many ways the CIA and other government agencies are spying on US citizens.

One such method exposed in the documents was the CIA’s hacking of Samsung Smart TV’s (Of which I have one). Through a program the CIA dubbed “Weeping Angel” they have the ability to listen in on conversations in the TV owners home even through the TV is turned off.

So, what say you? Are Julian Assange, and Edward Snowden, patriots for releasing the documents for public view, or are they turncoats for releasing information that could be used by other countries, some our enemies, to learn how the CIA is doing its espionage?

Please express your thoughts, but please keep this discussion civil.

Here’s a link to an article about the recent Wikileaks articles….
http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/7/14841556/wikileaks-cia-hacking-documents-ios-android-samsung
 
They are traitors who betray their oath.

Where does it end?

Who are they to decide what Information is released? One day it's for the people, the next or same day it's for enemies of our republic.

I would make comments to peers about a smart phone or TV being remotely activated even while off. Most people told me I'm paranoid. Now I feel vindicated. Not a valid reason for someone to betray our republic.

As far as WikiLeaks, they just release the information, they don't steal it.
 
Some time ago everything was black and white, right or wrong for me. I trusted our government to do the right thing. These days everything is grey.
 
Traitors. Have you noticed that Asange has only released info on the U.S.? If he was truly working for the betterment of the world he'd be releasing info on Russia and China and many others.
 
If you turn off your smart tv with the remote, it's not completely off. If you kill the power to the ac cord, then it's off.
 
Being a boring Canadian maybe my perspective is different. I have very little concern with the CIA, CSIS or other official law enforcement agencies being able to tap into my phone, computer or TV. That ability is how they are able to track and catch terrorists and criminals. I have nothing to hide, so why would I worry? I always wonder whether those that are the most vocal about these things are the ones with the most to hide.
 
Creekwood said:
Being a boring Canadian maybe my perspective is different. I have very little concern with the CIA, CSIS or other official law enforcement agencies being able to tap into my phone, computer or TV. That ability is how they are able to track and catch terrorists and criminals. I have nothing to hide, so why would I worry? I always wonder whether those that are the most vocal about these things are the ones with the most to hide.
Click to expand...

That seems like sound logic on the surface, and most often presented by those performing or justifying the surveillance. On the other side of the coin, why should my government, which supposedly derives it's power from me, be allowed secrets while I am not?
Our government has a history of high handed dealing with other government as well as it's own citizens.
 
Creekwood said:
Being a boring Canadian maybe my perspective is different. I have very little concern with the CIA, CSIS or other official law enforcement agencies being able to tap into my phone, computer or TV. That ability is how they are able to track and catch terrorists and criminals. I have nothing to hide, so why would I worry? I always wonder whether those that are the most vocal about these things are the ones with the most to hide.
Click to expand...

Everyone has a basic right to privacy and at the least, it's reprehensible that a government would spy on it's own people.

There are a couple flaws in your reasoning.

1 ) Spying on everyone, even if you have nothing to hide, is tantamount to accepting that everyone is potentially guilty until proven innocent. It's like asking everyone in a shopping mall to strip naked before entering in order to prove you don't have hidden weapon's. That approach assumes someone or everyone has something to hide so we'll check everyone. If you have nothing to hide, no big deal? Yes, it's a big deal. I'm a U.S. citizen and I have nothing to hide so DON'T SPY ON ME.

2) How many innocent people are in prison right now? That's rhetorical because it's not possible to know for sure but you can be sure there are some. When governments run these spy tools, it's not as if a person is monitoring you personally. They have computers suck in petabytes of information then they crunch this data and make correlations to search for suspicious activity. It would be very easy to misinterpret this information to falsely implicate an innocent person.

3) If the government can hack your TV or Amazon Echo, you can be sure that your run of the mill hacker can do it. You have nothing to hide but do you really want a stranger in the bathroom with you watching you wipe your butt? Do you want a stranger in your bedroom while you and your wife are rolling between the sheets? Our every day conversations in our home provide enough information for a person to assume our identity. We're in the safety of our own home so we talk freely about financial matters, family matters, friends, vacations we plan to take, etc. You have nothing to hide, do you want everyone to listen to these conversations?

The right to privacy is a core component to freedom and liberty. Ben Franklin said it best, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
Tonka Boater said:
Traitors. Have you noticed that Asange has only released info on the U.S.? If he was truly working for the betterment of the world he'd be releasing info on Russia and China and many others.
Click to expand...

This-but the only thing the intelligence agencys will learn listening through my television is how stupid I am while arguing with my wife.
 
Tonka Boater said:
Everyone has a basic right to privacy and at the least, it's reprehensible that a government would spy on it's own people.

There are a couple flaws in your reasoning.

1 ) Spying on everyone, even if you have nothing to hide, is tantamount to accepting that everyone is potentially guilty until proven innocent. It's like asking everyone in a shopping mall to strip naked before entering in order to prove you don't have hidden weapon's. That approach assumes someone or everyone has something to hide so we'll check everyone. If you have nothing to hide, no big deal? Yes, it's a big deal. I'm a U.S. citizen and I have nothing to hide so DON'T SPY ON ME.

2) How many innocent people are in prison right now? That's rhetorical because it's not possible to know for sure but you can be sure there are some. When governments run these spy tools, it's not as if a person is monitoring you personally. They have computers suck in petabytes of information then they crunch this data and make correlations to search for suspicious activity. It would be very easy to misinterpret this information to falsely implicate an innocent person.

3) If the government can hack your TV or Amazon Echo, you can be sure that your run of the mill hacker can do it. You have nothing to hide but do you really want a stranger in the bathroom with you watching you wipe your butt? Do you want a stranger in your bedroom while you and your wife are rolling between the sheets? Our every day conversations in our home provide enough information for a person to assume our identity. We're in the safety of our own home so we talk freely about financial matters, family matters, friends, vacations we plan to take, etc. You have nothing to hide, do you want everyone to listen to these conversations?

The right to privacy is a core component to freedom and liberty. Ben Franklin said it best, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Click to expand...

I totally get your point(s). I know the laws over what surveillance can be done and when and how are there to protect that fundamental right to privacy.

My point is not that there should be unrestricted use of those tools by the CIA, CSIS, FBI or police. There needs to be clear processes for how these tools are used and authorized for use. However, if the CIA has plausible reason to think that a terror cell is planning something, I would like to think that they would have the technology, and the ability to use it (subject to appropriate laws which are in place already).

I am actually comforted to know that if they had reason to suspect me of plotting some terrorist action, that they could tap into my phone or computer to check what I am up to. I have nothing to hide and I would expect that they would quickly move on.

Back to the original question I did not answer. I think Julian Assange is the very worst kind of traitor. If he was truly motivated for the betterment of the world he would focus his efforts on helping the US understand fully how the Russians have been infiltrating the US political system and god knows what else. He is an technological terrorist hiding behind a false face of being a freedom fighter.
 
Julian opened my eyes. I don't need big brother looking over my shoulder. I now shut my smart tv off with the power cord not the remote, thank you
The way I understand it, the government has computers listening to everyone and certain words and phrases trigger a more in depth look into that residence
Terror cells can easily move from house to house, So how else would they locate them?.
 
Tonka Boater said:
Traitors. Have you noticed that Asange has only released info on the U.S.? If he was truly working for the betterment of the world he'd be releasing info on Russia and China and many others.
Click to expand...
That might be what many in the US think, but it is not true.

People willing to blow the whistle or leak information is required. I have a hunch in Russia and China fear of reprisal is on a whole different level which results in a ship with few leaks.
 
Creekwood said:
I totally get your point(s). I know the laws over what surveillance can be done and when and how are there to protect that fundamental right to privacy.

My point is not that there should be unrestricted use of those tools by the CIA, CSIS, FBI or police. There needs to be clear processes for how these tools are used and authorized for use. However, if the CIA has plausible reason to think that a terror cell is planning something, I would like to think that they would have the technology, and the ability to use it (subject to appropriate laws which are in place already).

I am actually comforted to know that if they had reason to suspect me of plotting some terrorist action, that they could tap into my phone or computer to check what I am up to. I have nothing to hide and I would expect that they would quickly move on.

Back to the original question I did not answer. I think Julian Assange is the very worst kind of traitor. If he was truly motivated for the betterment of the world he would focus his efforts on helping the US understand fully how the Russians have been infiltrating the US political system and god knows what else. He is an technological terrorist hiding behind a false face of being a freedom fighter.
Click to expand...
How about if they are recording your activity without suspecting you of anything, is that OK? That's what they do.
 
Tonka Boater said:
Everyone has a basic right to privacy and at the least, it's reprehensible that a government would spy on it's own people.

There are a couple flaws in your reasoning.

1 ) Spying on everyone, even if you have nothing to hide, is tantamount to accepting that everyone is potentially guilty until proven innocent. It's like asking everyone in a shopping mall to strip naked before entering in order to prove you don't have hidden weapon's. That approach assumes someone or everyone has something to hide so we'll check everyone. If you have nothing to hide, no big deal? Yes, it's a big deal. I'm a U.S. citizen and I have nothing to hide so DON'T SPY ON ME.

2) How many innocent people are in prison right now? That's rhetorical because it's not possible to know for sure but you can be sure there are some. When governments run these spy tools, it's not as if a person is monitoring you personally. They have computers suck in petabytes of information then they crunch this data and make correlations to search for suspicious activity. It would be very easy to misinterpret this information to falsely implicate an innocent person.

3) If the government can hack your TV or Amazon Echo, you can be sure that your run of the mill hacker can do it. You have nothing to hide but do you really want a stranger in the bathroom with you watching you wipe your butt? Do you want a stranger in your bedroom while you and your wife are rolling between the sheets? Our every day conversations in our home provide enough information for a person to assume our identity. We're in the safety of our own home so we talk freely about financial matters, family matters, friends, vacations we plan to take, etc. You have nothing to hide, do you want everyone to listen to these conversations?

The right to privacy is a core component to freedom and liberty. Ben Franklin said it best, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Click to expand...
Excellent Post - one of the best ive ever read on any social media.......i was thinking of that same ben franklin quote as i read that posters comment too.
 
Woody said:
That might be what many in the US think, but it is not true.

People willing to blow the whistle or leak information is required. I have a hunch in Russia and China fear of reprisal is on a whole different level which results in a ship with few leaks.
Click to expand...

Not a single thing on Russia's or China's spying. The other stuff is useless and nobody cares. Most of what Assange posts relates to the U.S.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_material_published_by_WikiLeaks
 
We voluntarily relinquish the rights of privacy in so many ways that smart televisions that record our conversations should be the least of your worries. The next time you are looking for something to worry about, read the agreement you signed when you took possession of your latest smart phone. The United States government has the right to anything you use it for. The BS story about needing to hack into an iPhone to collect information is a pathetic attempt at playing dumb.

How about the one at your investment brokers office, ever read that one? Ever clicked "accept" while using leased computer software? Hell, Facebook knows & legally sells more information about you than you can even recall.

Ever use the Internet to participate in an on line forum? Once you "agree or accept", well, you agreed.

Sorry for the rant and partial hijack. But if our government wanted to keep things classified they shouldn't share that information with subcontractors. It's like I say about stock market crashes, housing market crashes, Ponzi schemes and the like..... They all knew it was gonna happen, they just hoped they were not still involved when it did.
 
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Assange is no hero. If everyone remembers, Assange released information about our troop movements, intelligence techniques, as well as operatives, during the Obama administration. He was lauded as a hero by liberals. Although, I found the DNC hacks interesting & entertaining (the DNC is a private organization BTW), I always refer back to some of his first releases. How many US service members were directly affected by that release - mortally?

As it relates to the CIA today, to me it's a conundrum as to how i feel about it. Tonka's succinct post says it all.

In 2010, I received the 'Long Form Census' and only filled out the portion that was required; "How many are in our household". This long form wanted to know if I own/rent a home, what my ethnicity is, am I employed and what status, married, how many cars do I own, three pages of details. Because I only filled out what is required, I was harassed for "3 MONTHS" by phone calls from the Census Bureau threatening to charge me $300 per question I didn't answer. I refused and the calls finally stopped.

This brings me to the CIA and collecting data and/or listening in. We have this 'thing' called the 'Bill of Rights'. The CIA collecting data, just like the Census Bureau telling me I have to give up my personal information, directly infringes on your 4th Amendment, search and seizure Rights, regardless if you've done nothing wrong. What guarantee does the Government give you that this information that they are collecting from you is protected? The answer is none because they can't.

To those who think they're doing nothing wrong today, and it's okay - Last year we had 80,000+ "PAGES" of 'NEW' laws and Regulations, the year before was 78,000 + "PAGES". Do you honestly think you are doing nothing wrong? Here's is one of my favorite quotes.

[h=1]"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”[/h]
― Ayn Rand




my $.02162 cents
 
My company has advised me that even though these thousands of pages have been released, they are still classified. Viewing them is illegal. Just an additional point to consider.....

Don
 
Tonka Boater said:
Everyone has a basic right to privacy and at the least, it's reprehensible that a government would spy on it's own people.


The right to privacy is a core component to freedom and liberty. Ben Franklin said it best, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Click to expand...

Beat me to it. I also have to question a violation of my 4A rights.
 
Forget about the current messengers for a moment, the question is do 'you' want to know or not? If you want to know, it isn't the government that'll tell you. It means someone else has to step up, and at obvious great risk.

It'll be a sorry day when fear silences the last whistle blower.
 
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